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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trying to Understand "Faith Without Works is dead"

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Scroggins
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Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Good word Bro. FOC.


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Scroggins

 2006/5/23 13:02Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: dead works or works of faith

Quote:
I'm finding it really difficult to apply it in my life.


Hey, Doublej, you are not the only one! It has been the challenge of the centuries. I’m still trying to internalize this great truth, “faith without works is dead” in conjunction with it’s partner verse: “A man is justified by faith and NOT by works.” I am still learning to integrate these two concepts into my life. I will try to explain the way I have come to understand this.

Me, having been a very task-oriented person, find it easier to understand it this way: Faith without any tangible, concrete evidence, is not faith at all.

The example in James of helping the needy is very appropriate because one of the evidences of true trust in God is the ability to sense the needs of others, and the willingness to meet them. Now, I might add that there are many very religious people who are doing magnificent works caring for the needy – so in itself, that is not a criteria for true faith. Let’s think further:

One man with faith does a good work on behalf of the needy. Another man without faith does the same work. For the second one, his works is dead.
The difference is motive: The one does it as a RESPONSE from his love for Christ. The second to EARN the love of Christ (earn salvation by works). The first is other-centered, the second is me-centered. That makes a world of difference. The one who has true trust in God, is not looking for anything in return – even from God. He is not looking for recognition from man. If someone else gets the credit for what he did, he doesn’t care. If someone falsely accuses him, or fires him, he is doesn’t get self-defensive. He remains Christ-like.

Not so the one who has dead faith. Since his trust is not in God, he may be self-protective about his works, his status, or his possessions. Note I said, “HIS” work. (See who is the center?) He may also display a lack of spiritual fruit in some aspects of his life.

In the Bible anything that is important is said over and over again in all kinds of ways. With that in mind, I’d like to present a challenge to you, Doublej: Make a chart with two columns: In one list the evidences of true faith, and in the other the evidences of dead faith (unbelief/flesh). Comb through the Bible for references to put in either side. Galatians may be a good place to start.

You presented a hypothetical situation:
Quote:
If a man is suffering from a illnes and is completly puting his faith in God without the use of any medicine, is this man fullfilling words of this verse?


Perhaps, though, the mark of faithfulness might not be that he reject the use medicine. The mark of faith is that he trusts God with his life – with our without doctors.
One can easily be deceived, for some who have abandoned medicine have done so out of pride. They trusted in their OWN faith.

I hope that inspires you to persevere in your search for truth.
Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/23 15:10Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


The just shall live by faith. That δικαιοσυνη , which we translate righteousness in this verse, signifies God's method of saving mankind by faith in Christ, is fully evident from the use of the term in Ro 9:30 : The Gentiles which followed not after Righteousness - who had no knowledge by revelation, of God's method of justifying and saving sinners, have attained to Righteousness - have had imparted to them God's method of salvation by faith in Christ. Ro 9:31 : But Israel, the Jews, which followed after the law of righteousness - that law, the end or object of which is Christ, and through him justification to all that believe (Ro 10:4), have not attained to the law of righteousness - have not found out the genuine plan of salvation, even in that law which so strongly and generally proclaims justification by faith. And why have they not found it? Ro 9:32 : Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law - they did not discern that even its works or prescribed religious observances were intended to lead to faith in that glorious Mediator of whom they were the types and representatives; but the Jews trusted in the observances themselves, hoping to acquire justification and final salvation by that means. For they stumbled at the stumbling-stone - at the doctrine of Christ crucified as the only sure ground on which the expectation of future salvation can be founded. Therefore, being ignorant of God's righteousness - God's method of saving sinners, and going about to establish their own righteousness - their own method of salvation, by the observance of those rites and ceremonies which should have led them by faith to Christ, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God - they would not submit to be saved in God's way, and therefore rejected, persecuted, and crucified the Lord Jesus; see Ro 10:3. This collation of passages most evidently shows that the word righteousness here means simply God's method of saving sinners, or God's way of salvation, in opposition to the ways and means invented by the fancies or prejudices of men.

1. That the just or righteous man cannot live a holy and useful life without allowing the exercising of the continual faith of our Lord Jesus: which is strictly true; for He only who has brought him into that state of salvation can preserve him in it; and he stands by faith.

      from faith to faith--a difficult clause. Most interpreters (judging from the sense of such phrases elsewhere) take it to mean, "from one degree of faith to another." But this agrees ill with the apostle's design, which has nothing to do with the progressive stages of faith, but solely with faith itself as the appointed way of receiving God's "righteousness." "The righteousness of God is in the gospel message, revealed (to be) from (or 'by') The faith of Jesus Christ (or 'for') faith," that is, "in order to be by faith received in the capacity of God to impart faith to man in his new life in Christ Jesus, thus Gal 2:20 "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, and the live I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God who love me and gave Himself for me.

Don't allow one Jerusalem Law preacher to overwhelm the preponderance of scripture that faith is what will make our works acceptable to God. Not the works themselves, but the Faith of Christ that gives our works life and justification there in. I will show you my faith by the works that the faith of Christ have wrought in me. Not by my works but by His. Not by my faith but by His. Not by my will but His.
Because He first love me, that I might love Him and the Father of us All by the only Love The Father can accept the Love of Christ the is in me.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/24 5:45Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: What are the works?!?

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Me, having been a very task-oriented person, find it easier to understand it this way: Faith without any tangible, concrete evidence, is not faith at all.

The example in James of helping the needy is very appropriate because [b]one of the evidences of true trust in God is the ability to sense the needs of others, and the willingness to meet them[/b]. Now, I might add that there are many very religious people who are doing magnificent works caring for the needy – so in itself, that is not a criteria for true faith. Let’s think further:



Diane,

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. What James is referring to here is such a change in character, that [b]benevolent action[/b] is habitual and not forced. The one who feels pressured into giving to the needy will be aware of the possibilty that someone else who "has works" can potentially meet the need. After all, they exersized their "faith" by praying for the need and pronouncing a blessing over them, but you can't eat and wear a blessing. This is dead faith because it is powerless (Watchman Nee defined death as total powerlessness, in Normal Christian Life) to overcome selfishness.

True faith is in Christ at the expense of self. We become a [b]finite replica[/b] of God, who [b]is[/b] love (that is totally selfles). Now consider this. God puts man's desires His own. The Christian puts God's desires before his own. Therefore the Christian demonstrates his love for God by seeing that God's desire to have man's desires met, is met (yeah, I know. I was dizzy just thinking of how to put it).

It isn't a matter of "You better go out and meet peoples needs!!!", it's "Well of course I'm generous. Do you mean to say that you're not?" This "natural affection" doesn't come "naturally", but is the result of the work of the cross in our life.

It's a cause and effect thing. I obey God because it's the only logical thing to do, in the light of what God's done for me. In other words, "Faith without works is dead" simply means, "If you display no beveolent action, then that is proof that what you are calling faith is realy a lie."


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/5/24 7:22Profile
arbustum
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Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 96
Sydney Australia

 Re: Trying to Understand "Faith Without Works is dead"

faith without works is dead... its a law much like you reap what you sow, what goes up must come down and you will get zapped if you play with electrical plugs with forks... every single thing you do has a concequence, every idle word you say that is apart from teh scriptures of God will be judged and you will be held accountable at the throne of God and another one: your works here build your place in heaven. faith is all very well, but what faith can you tell of when someone gets a good revelation and then keeps it to themselves? not only is it selfish but its so ungodly... when moses and the crew set out into the desert before they went moses asked God for something to help distinguish them from other men so that anyone they encountered would know they were God's... pillar of fire, hey mana each morning, strike a rock get your water already then-stop whinging ok... they were not acting the part but God set them apart anyway- he kept faithful to the covenant he had with abrahams offspring infact doesnt the chapter give reference to abrahams faithfulness as he offered issac?! anyway new testament times means the covenant of abraham's offspring is open to mean anyone who chooses to accept it as a gift, a blessing in their own right cos Jesus paid for that too. so we have that ability doubled over to tap into God's world, and yet here we are confused over what faith looks like... take it from the man that was called faithful for his actions...what else could paul have ment?

not to mention, its unidentifyble claiming faith and not puting any effort into anything cos you're effectively sitting around saying God i cant be bothered, you do something. which is really dumb. you forfeit your faith just by making that decision, cos you're waiting for proof before you step out... heard that one before?

also it says (cant remember where but its in there) if you are sick take every precaution you can to make yourself well lest you be brother with suicide. to the same extreme often God works by amplifying the laws of physics... you think the walls of jericho weren't effected in the least by the shouts? sound is air moving at certain frequencies, that means force... what cant the creator of the universe do that perhaps the walls fell to their gutteral impact? just a thought.

also, faith by definition requires a bit of commitment, really you gotta convince yourself that God's got your back and allow yourself to be lead by the spirit and believe you me this is a word i need to take onboard aswell!... but really we can all define the word 'Faith', so when did we loose its meaning? in action or in thoughtlife? in our thoughtlife or in our hearts and souls?

faith without action isnt actually faith at all, all paul is doing is stating the obvious.

onya champ, you're a good bloke.
holls.


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holly

 2006/5/24 9:15Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

In other word, when we believe we are not just, but Justified by the Christ that is in us. The same goes for faith, we are not faithful, but the Christ in us is Faithful. This is a great psychological statement made by Paul, "from faith to faith. The Faith of Christ to our faith. Just like, "Line upon Line and precept upon precept."

Where does faith come from? Did I create faith? Without God there is nothing including faith, each man has a measure of faith, it was given by God. He knows how to make fallen faith the faith of the Son of God. We can keep trying to make our faith by works the faith we think God wants us to have, but all we accomplish is to change my faith by works to now saying my faith is now made by the works I do and if I don't do the works I don't have faith. Now, wow, I can show you my faith by my works, and without works my faith is dead, yea! Now I can be what God wants me to be, stand back and watch my works. Sorry, still another lie in the school of Satan, you will be just like God.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is our Faith, The Faith of the Son of God, that Justifies all that we have become in Christ Jesus. Again and Again and Again it is not my faith but the Faith of the Son of God that will make our works His works and greater works in volume will we do, by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How are we found sinners? The biggest sin of all, self being on the throne and our works showing our faith. May the Faith of Jesus Christ bring us to the heavenly places we are seated in Christ Jesus, that the Life of Christ in us, we will allow to come forth, by getting out of His way and giving Him control of our Lives, including His Faith that is in us.

He is knocking, open the door and let the Faith of the Son of God come to the world by His Faith that is wanting to get out, He is on the inside knocking to get out.

Christ in you: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/24 13:45Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Trying to Understand "Faith Without Works is dead"

doublej wrote:

Quote:
For instance, If a man is suffering from a illnes and is completly puting his faith in God without the use of any medicine, is this man fullfilling words of this verse? He's trusting in God, but is he completing the "works" part of the verse?


The work is love.

[b]James 2:15-16[/b] [color=990000]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[b]:16[/b] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[b]:17[/b] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [/color]
[b]&[/b]
[b]1John 3:17-18[/b] [color=990000]But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
[b]:18[/b] My little children, let us not love in word only, neither in tongue only; but in deed and in truth.[/color]

Puting your faith in God without the use of any medicine has nothing to do with love.

[b]Eph 2:10[/b] [color=990000]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/color]

 2006/5/25 10:32Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
faith without works is dead... its a law much like you reap what you sow, what goes up must come down and you will get zapped if you play with electrical plugs with forks...



I think "reaping what you sow" is misunderstood. IF you sow to the flesh, you will, from the flesh reap corruption, but if you sow to the spirit, you will from the Spirit reap Life (zoe) which is Eternal.

This basically means, what you plant will grow. If you sow to the flesh the flesh will grow and from it corruption. If you sow to the spirit, you will reap Life (zoe)from the spirit which is the Eternal Life of God.

I think we have a false concept of this verse as though it says in the buddist sense, "what goes around comes around" or, "if you are nice to people it will come back to you".

But the Apostle is dealing with the flesh vs. the spirit and corruption vs. the Eternal Life of God.

If we feed our flesh our flesh will be in control and gain the assencdancy. But if we feed our spirit our spirit will be strong and we will reap from our spirit Life. "Out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water" and, "I came that they might have Life (zoe) and have it abundantly.

Graftedbranch



 2006/5/30 19:01Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

How many of us think we love God? Was God receiving the Love He wants form Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. David was the only one that came close. All failed. Acts 13:22-23 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: David failed also and needed Jesus whom David will see on his throne.

Even mentioned in David a Saviour, Jesus. But even David needed a Saviour. Jesus was the only One that God was pleased in and call Him Beloved.

Solomon was loved like Jacob, but this is a love that is not like the beloved Himself, His Son Jesus Christ. Nehemiah 13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was (beloved of his God,)'ahab' and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.

157. 'ahab'
Search for H157 in KJVSL
bha 'ahab aw-hab'

or raheb {aw-habe'}; a primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise):--(be-)love(-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.

Acts 13:22-23 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Even David was not called beloved, only Christ was called by the Father, beloved.-- 27. agapetos
Search for G27 in KJVSL
agaphtoV agapetos ag-ap-ay-tos'

from 25; beloved:--(dearly, well) beloved, dear.
Not a friendship love.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luk 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see Him.

WE saw Him but we did not see Him and now we See Him as a man no more. We heard Him but did not hear Him. Pray the Father that we have ears and eyes to see Him and hear Him now.

There is only One that loves the Father as He wants and that is Jesus Christ. We cannot love God without the Christ in us, then our love is not of our selves but of Christ that is in us.

May we thank God that He gave us the real desire of our Heart and that is to love Him, but we could not do it, so He gave us His beloved Son that He in us can Love the Father with the only love He can accept. Praise God we can love Him by Him birthing His only Love in each one of us. That is how much Jesus Loved us and how much He wanted us to love the Father and each other, by giving Himself for us.

This is Who God has sown in our Hearts, even His beloved Son Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/31 1:15Profile
doublej
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Joined: 2005/12/7
Posts: 3


 Re:

Hello Brethren, Thank you for sharing your insight on the scriture. All your thoughts and revelations have enlightened me. Once again thank you for your time. God Bless
Doublej

 2006/6/3 13:40Profile





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