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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride

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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
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Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Pride and Humility

[b]Humble Faith[/b]
[i]Edward Fisher[/i]

According to the measure of any man's faith, is his true peace of conscience; for, says the apostle, "being justified by faith, we have peace with God," (Rom 5:1). Yea, says the prophet Isaiah, "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusteth in thee," (Isa 26:3). Here there is a sure and true grounded peace: "Therefore it is of faith," says the apostle, "that it might be by grace, and that the promise might be sure to all the seed," (Rom 4:16). And answerable to a man's believing that he is "justified freely by God's grace, through that redemption that is in Jesus Christ," (Rom 4:3,24), is his true humility of spirit. So that, although he be endowed with excellent gifts and graces, and though he perform never so many duties, he denies himself in all; he does not make them as ladders for him to ascend up into heaven by, but he desires to "be found in Christ, not having his own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ," (Phil 3:9). He does not think himself to be one step nearer to heaven, for all his works and performances. And if he hear any man praise him for his gifts and graces, he will not conceive that he has obtained the same by his own industry and pains-taking, as some men have proudly thought; neither will he speak it out, as some have done, saying; These gifts and graces have cost me something-I have taken much pains to obtain them; but he says, "By the grace of God I am what I am; and not I, but the grace of God that was with me," (1 Cor 15:10). And if he behold an ignorant man, or a wicked liver, he will not call him "Carnal wretch!" or, "Profane fellow!" nor say, "Stand by thyself, come not near me, for I am holier than thou," (Isa 65:5), as some have said; but he pities such a man, and prays for him; and in his heart he says concerning himself, "Who maketh thee to differ? and what hast thou that thou hast not received"? (1 Cor 4:7).

And thus I might go on, and show you how, according to any man's faith, is his true joy in God, and his true thankfulness to God, and his patience in all troubles and afflictions, and his contentedness in any condition, and his willingness to suffer, and his cheerfulness in suffering, and his contentedness to part with any earthly thing. Yea, according to any man's faith, is his ability to pray aright, (Rom 10:14), to receive the sacrament with profit and comfort: and to do any duty either to God or man after a right manner, and to a right end, (Heb 4:2). Yea, according to the measure of any man's faith, in his love to Christ, and so to man for Christ's sake; and so, consequently, his readiness and willingness to forgive an injury; yea, to forgive an enemy, and to do good to them that hate him; and the more faith any man has, the less love he has to the world or the things that are in the world. To conclude, the greater any man's faith is, the more fit he is to die, and the more willing he is to die.

Faith is the chief grace that Christians are to be exhorted to get and exercise; and therefore, when the people asked our Lord Christ, "What they should do to work the works of God," he answered and said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent," (John 6:29); speaking as if there were no other duty at all required, but only believing; for, indeed, to say as the thing is, believing includes all other duties in it, and they spring all from it; and therefore says one, "Preach faith, and preach all."-"Whilst I bid man believe," says learned Rollock, "I bid him do all good things"; for, says Dr. Preston, "Truth of belief will bring forth truth of holiness; if a man believe, works of sanctification will follow; for faith draws after it inherent righteousness and sanctification. [i]"Wherefore" says he, "if a man will go about this great work, to change his life, to get victory over any sin, that it may not have dominion over him, to have his conscience purged from dead works and to be made partaker of the divine nature, let him not go about it as a moral man"; that is, let him not consider what commandments there are, what the rectitude is which the law requires, and how to bring his heart to it; but "let him go about it as a Christian, that is, let him believe the promise of pardon, in the blood of Christ; and the very believing the promise will be able to cleanse his heart from dead works[/i]."

Whence has faith its power and virtue to do all this?" Even from our Lord Jesus Christ; for faith doth ingraft a man, who is by nature a wild olive branch, into Christ as into the natural olive; and fetches sap from the root, Christ, and thereby makes the tree bring forth fruit in its kind; yea, faith fetcheth a supernatural efficacy from the death and life of Christ; by virtue whereof it metamorphoses the heart of a believer, and creates and infuses into him new principles of action. So that, what a treasure of all graces Christ hath stored up in him, faith draineth, and draweth them out to the use of a believer; being as a conduit, that watereth all the herbs of the garden. Yea, faith does apply the blood of Christ to a believer's heart; and the blood of Christ has in it, not only a power to wash from the guilt of sin, but to cleanse and purge likewise from the power and stain of sin, and therefore, says godly Hooker, "If you would have grace, you must first of all get faith, and that will bring all the rest, let faith go to Christ, and there is meekness, patience, [i]humility[/i], and wisdom, and faith will fetch all them to the soul; therefore, [says he,] you must not look for sanctification till you come to Christ in faith."


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Mike Balog

 2006/12/31 23:42Profile
crsschk
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 Pride and Humility

[b]A Word about Pride to all but Especially to Ministers of the Gospel[/b]

Richard Baxter

[i]Taken from the book "The Reformed Pastor"[/i]

One of our most heinous and palpable sins is PRIDE. This is a sin that hath too much interest in the best of us, but which is more hateful and inexcusable in us than in other men. Yet is it so prevalent in some of us, that it indicteth our discourses, it chooseth our company, it formeth our countenances, it putteth the accent and emphasis upon our words. It fills some men's minds with aspiring desires, and designs. It possesseth them with envious and bitter thoughts against those who stand in their light, or who by any means eclipse their glory, or hinder the progress of their reputation. Oh what a constant companion! what a tyrannical commander, what a sly and subtle insinuating enemy, is this sin of pride! It goes with men to the draper, the mercer, the tailor: it chooseth them their cloth, their trimming and their fashion. Fewer ministers would ruffle it out in the fashion in hair and habit, if it were not for the command of this tyrannous vice. And I would that this were all, or the worst. But, alas, how frequently doth PRIDE go with us to our study, and there sit with us and do our work! How oft doth it choose our subject, and, more frequently still, our words and ornaments! God commandeth us to be as plain as we can, that we may inform the ignorant; and as convincing and serious as we are able, that we may melt and change their hardened hearts. But [b]pride[/b] stands by and contradicteth all, and produceth its toys and trifles. It polluteth rather than polisheth. And, under presence of laudable ornaments, dishonoreth our sermons with childish things, as if a prince were to be decked in the habit of a stage-player, or a painted fool. [b]Pride[/b] persuadeth us to paint the window, that it may dim the light, and to speak to our people that which they cannot understand, to let them know that we are able to speak unprofitably. If we have a plain and cutting passage, it taketh off the edge, and dulls the life of our preaching, under presence of filing off the roughness, unevenness, and superfluity. When God chargeth us to deal with men as for their lives, and to beseech them with all the earnestness that we are able; this cursed sin controlleth all, and condemneth the most holy commands of God, and saith to us, 'What! Will you make people think you are mad? Will you make them say you rage or rave? Cannot you speak soberly and moderately?' And thus doth [b]pride[/b] make many a man's sermons; and what [b]pride[/b] makes the devil makes, and what sermons the devil will make and to what end, we may easily conjecture. Though the matter be of God, yet if the dress, and manner, and end be from Satan, we have no great reason to expect success.

[b]And when pride hath made the sermon, it goes with us into the pulpit, formeth our tone, animateth us in the delivery, takes us off from that which may be displeasing, how necessary soever, and setteth us in pursuit of vain applause. In short, the sum of all is this; it maketh men, both in studying and preaching, to seek themselves, and deny God, when they should seek God's glory, and deny themselves.[/b] When they should inquire, What shall I say, and how shall I say it, to please God best, and do most good? it makes them ask, What shall I say, and how shall I deliver it, to be thought a learned able preacher, and to be applauded by all that hear me? When the sermon is done, [b]pride[/b] goeth home with them, and maketh them more eager to know whether they were applauded, than whether they did prevail for the saving of souls. Were it not for shame, they could find in their hearts to ask people how they liked them and to draw out their commendations. If they perceive that they are highly thought of, they rejoice, as having attained their end; but if they see that they are considered but weak or common men, they are displeased, as having missed the prize they had in view.

But even this is not all, nor the worst, if worse may be. Oh, that ever it should be said of godly ministers, that they are so set upon popular air, and on sitting highest in men's estimation; that they envy the talents and names of their brethren who are preferred before them. As if all were taken from their praise that is given to another; and as if God had given them his gifts to be the mere ornaments and trappings of their persons, that they may walk as men of reputation in the world, and as if all his gifts to others were to be trodden down and vilified, if they seem to stand in the way of their honor, What? A saint, a preacher [i]of[/i] Christ, and yet envy that which hath the image of Christ, and malign his gifts for which he should have the glory, and all because they seem to hinder our glory? Is not every true Christian a member of the body of Christ, and, therefore, partaketh of the blessings of the whole, and of each particular member thereof? And doth not every man owe thanks to God for his brethren's gifts, not only as having himself a part in them, as the foot hath the benefit of the guidance of the eye, but also because his own ends may be attained by his brethren's gifts, as well as by his own? For if the glory of God, and the Church's felicity, be not his end, he is not a Christian. Will any workman malign another, because he helpeth him to do his master's work? Yet, alas, how common is this heinous crime among the ministers of Christ! They can secretly blot the reputation of those that stand in the way of their own; and what they cannot for shame do in plain and open terms, lest they be proved liars and slanderers, they will do in generals, and by malicious intimations, raising suspicions where they cannot fasten accusations. And some go so far, that they are unwilling that any one who is abler than themselves should come into their pulpits, lest they should be more applauded than themselves. A fearful thing it is, that any man, who hath the least of the fear of God, should so envy God's gifts, and had rather that his carnal hearers should remain unconverted, and the drowsy unawakened, than that it should be done by another who may be preferred before him. [i]Yea, so far doth this cursed vice prevail, that in great congregations, which have need of the help of many preachers, we can scarcely, in many places, get two of equality to live together in love and quietness, and unanimously to carry on the work of God.[/i] But unless one of them be quite below the other in parts, and content to be so esteemed, or unless he be a curate to the other, and ruled by him, they are contending for precedency, and envying each other's interest, and walking with strangeness and jealousy towards one another, to the shame of their profession, and the great wrong of their people. I am ashamed to think of it, that when I have been laboring to convince persons of public interest and capacity, of the great necessity of more ministers than one in large congregations, they tell me, they will never agree together. I hope the objection is unfounded as to the most, but it is a sad case that it should be true of any. Nay, some men are so far gone in [b]pride[/b], that when they might have an equal assistant to further the work of God, they had rather take all the burden upon themselves, though more than they can bear, than that any one should share with them in the honor, or that their interest in the esteem of the people should be diminished.

Hence also it is that men do so magnify their own opinions, and are as censorious of any that differ from them in lesser things, as if it were all one to differ from them and from God. They expect that all should conform to their judgment, as if they were the rulers of the Church's faith; and while we cry down papal infallibility, [i]too[/i] many of us would be popes ourselves, and have all stand to our determination, as if we were infallible. It is true, we have more modesty than expressly to say so. We pretend that it is only the evidence of truth in our reasons, that we expect men should yield to, and our zeal is the truth and not for ourselves. But as that must needs be taken for truth which is ours, so our reasons must needs be taken for valid. And if they be but freely examined and be found fallacious, as we are exceedingly backward to see it ourselves because they are ours, so we are angry that it should be disclosed to others. We so espouse the cause of our errors, as if all that were spoken against them were spoken against our persons, and we were heinously injured to have our arguments thoroughly confuted, by which we injured the truth and the souls of men. The matter is come to this pass through our [b]pride[/b], that if an error or fallacious argument do fall under the patronage of a reverend name (which is nothing rare), we must either allow it the victory and give away the truth, or else become injurious to that name that doth patronize it. For though you meddle not with their persons, yet do they put themselves under all the strokes which you give their arguments; and feel them as sensibly as if you had spoken of themselves, because they think it will follow in the eyes of others, that weak arguing is a sign of a weak man. If, therefore, you consider it your duty to shame their errors and false reasonings by discovering their nakedness, they take it as if you shamed their persons. And so their names must be a garrison or fortress to their mistakes, and their reverence must defend all their sayings from attack.

So high indeed are our spirits, that when it becomes the duty of any one to reprove or contradict us, we are commonly impatient both of the matter and the manner. We love the man who will say as we say, and be of our opinion, and promote our reputation, though in other respects, he be less worthy of our esteem. But he is ungrateful to us who contradicteth us and differeth from us, and dealeth plainly with us as to our miscarriages and telleth us of our faults. Especially in the management of our public arguings, where the eye of the world is upon us, we can scarcely endure any contradiction or plain dealing. I know that railing language is to be abhorred, and that we should be as tender of each other's reputation, as our fidelity to the truth will permit But our [b]pride[/b] makes too many of us think all men condemn us, that do not admire us, yea, and admire all we say, and submit their judgments to our most palpable mistakes. We are so tender that a man can scarcely touch us but we are hurt. We are so high-minded that a man who is not versed in complimenting and skilled in flattery above the vulgar rate can scarcely tell how to handle us so observantly-and fit our expectations at every turnwhithout there being some word or some neglect which our high spirits will fasten on and take as injurious to our honor.

[i]I confess I have often wondered that this most heinous sin should be made so light of, and thought so consistent with a holy frame of heart and life, when far less sins are by ourselves, proclaimed to be so damnable in our people[/i] And I have wondered more, to see the difference between godly preachers and ungodly sinners, in this respect. When we speak to drunkards, worldlings, or ignorant unconverted persons, we disgrace them to the utmost, and lay it on as plainly as we can speak, and tell them of their sin, and shame, and misery; and we expect that they should not only bear all patiently, but take all thankfully. And most that I deal with do take it patiently; and many gross sinners will commend the closest preachers most, and will say that they care not for hearing a man that will not tell then, plainly of their sins. But if we speak to godly ministers against their errors or their sins, if we do not honor them and reverence them, and speak as smoothly as we are able to speak, yea, if we mix not commendations with our reproofs, and if the applause be not predominant, so as to drown all the force of the reproof or confutation, they take it as almost an insufferable injury.

Brethren, I know this is a sad confession, but that all this should exist among us, should be more grievous to us than to be told of it. Could the evil be hid, I should not have disclosed it, at least so openly in the view of all. But, alas, it is long ago open to the eyes of the world. We have dishonored ourselves by idolizing our honor; we print our shame, and preach our shame, thus proclaiming it to the whole world. Some will think that I speak overcharitably when I call such persons godly men, in whom so great a sin doth so much prevail. I know, indeed, that where it is predominant, not hated, and bewailed, and mortified in the main, there can be no true godliness; and I beseech every man to exercise a strict jealousy and search of his own heart. But if all be graceless that are guilty of any, or of most of the fore-mentioned discoveries of [b]pride[/b], the Lord be merciful to the ministers of this land, and give us quickly another spirit, for grace is then a rarer thing than most of us have supposed it to be.

Yet I must needs say, that I do not mean to involve all the ministers of Christ in this charge. To the praise of Divine grace be it spoken, we have some among us who are eminent for humility and meekness, and who, in these respects, are exemplary to their flocks and to their brethren. It is their glory, and shall be their glory; and maketh them truly honorable and lovely in the eyes of God and of all good men, and even in the eyes of the ungodly themselves. O that the rest of us were but such! But, alas, this is not the case with all of us.

[i]O that the Lord would lay us at his feet in the tears of unfeigned sorrow for this sin! Brethren, may I expostulate this case a little with my own heart and yours, that we may see the evil of our sin, and be reformed! Is not pride the sin of devils, the first-born of hell? Is it not that wherein Satan's image doth much consist? And is it to be tolerated in men who are so engaged against him and his kingdom as we are? The very design of the gospel is to abase us, and the work of grace is begun and carried on in humiliation.[/i] Humility is not a mere ornament of a Christian, but an essential part of the new creature. It is a contradiction in terms, to be a Christian, and not humble. All who will be Christians must be Christ's disciples, and 'come to him to learn'; and the lesson which he teacheth then, is, to 'be meek and lowly.' Oh, how many precepts and admirable examples hath our Lord and Master given us to this end. 'Can we behold him washing and wiping his servants' feet, and yet be proud and lordly [i]still?[/i] Shall he converse with the meanest of the people, and shall we avoid them as below our notice, and think none but persons [i]of wealth[/i] and honor fit for our society? How many of us are oftener found in the houses of gentlemen than in the cottages of the poor, who most need our help? There are many of us who would think it below us, to be daily with the most needy and beggarly people, instructing them in the way of life and salvation, as if we had taken charge of the souls of the rich only! Alas, what is it that we have to be proud of? Is it of our body? Why, is it not made of the like materials as the brutes, and must it not shortly be as loathsome and abominable as a carcass? Is it of our graces? Why, the more [i]we are[/i] proud of them the less we have to be proud of. When so much of the nature of grace consists in humility, it is a great absurdity to be proud of it. Is it of our knowledge and learning? Why, if we have any knowledge at all, we must needs know how much reason we have to be humble; and if we know more than others, how much must more reason than others to be humble. How little is it that the most learned know, in comparison of that of which they are ignorant! To know that things are past your reach, and to know how ignorant you are, one would think should be no great cause of pride. However, do not the devils know more than you? And will you be proud of that in which the devils excel you? Our very business is to teach the great lesson of humility to our people; and how unfit, then, is it that we should be proud ourselves? We must study humility, and preach humility; and must we not possess and practice humility? A proud preacher of humility is at least a self-condemning man.

What a sad case is it, that so vile a sin is not more easily discerned by us, but many who are most proud can blame it in others, and yet take no notice of it in themselves! The world takes notice of some among us, that they have aspiring minds, and seek for the highest room, and must be the rulers, and bear the sway wherever they come, or else there is no living or acting with them. In any consultations, they come not to search after truth, but to dictate to others? who, perhaps, are [i]fit to[/i] teach them. In a word, they have such arrogant domineering spirits, that the world rings of it, and yet they will not see it in themselves!

Brethren, I desire to deal closely with my own heart and yours. I beseech you consider whether it will save us to speak well of the grace of humility while we possess it not, or to speak against the sin of [b]pride[/b] while we indulge in it? Have not many of us cause to inquire diligently, whether sincerity will consist with such a measure of [b]pride[/b] as we feel? When we are telling the drunkard that he cannot be saved unless he become temperate, and the fornicator that he cannot be saved unless he become chaste, have we not as great reason if we are proud, to say to ourselves, that we cannot be saved unless we become humble? [b]Pride[/b], in fact, is a greater sin than drunkenness or whoredom; and humility is as necessary as sobriety and chastity. Truly, brethren, a man may as certainly, and more slyly, make haste to hell, in the way of earnest preaching of the gospel, and seeming zeal for a holy life, as in a way of drunkeness and filthiness. For what is holiness, but a devotedness to God and a living to him? And what is a damnable state, but a devotedness to carnal self and a living to ourselves? And doth any one live more to himself, or less to God, than the proud man? And may not [b]pride[/b] make a preacher study for himself and pray and preach, and live to himself, even when he seemeth to surpass others in the work? It is not the work without the right principle and end that will prove us upright. The work may be God's, and yet we may do it, not for God, but for ourselves. I confess I feel such continual danger on this point, that if I do not watch, lest I should study for myself, and preach for myself, and write for myself, rather than for Christ, I should soon miscarry; and after all, I justify not myself, when I must condemn the sin.

Consider, I beseech you, brethren, what baits there are in the work of the ministry to entice a man to selfishness, even in the highest works of piety. The fame of a godly man is as great a snare as the fame of a learned man. But woe to him that takes up the fame of godliness instead of godliness! 'Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.' When the times were all for learning and empty formalities, the temptation of the proud did lie that way. But now, when, through the unspeakable mercy of God, the most lively practical preaching is in credit, and godliness itself is in credit, the temptation of the proud is to pretend to be zealous preachers and godly men. Oh, what a fine thing is it to have the people crowding to hear us, and affected with what we say, and yielding up to us their judgments and affections! What a taking thing is it to be cried up as the ablest and godliest man in the country, to be famed through the land for the highest spiritual excellencies! Alas, brethren, a little grace combined with such inducements will serve to make you join yourselves with the forwardest in promoting the cause of Christ in the world. Nay, [b]pride[/b] may do it without special grace.

[i]Oh, therefore, be jealous of yourselves, and, amidst all your studies, be sure to study humility. 'He that exalteth himself shall be humbled, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.' I commonly observe that almost all men, whether good or bad, do loathe the proud, and love the humble. So far indeed doth pride contradict itself, that, conscious of its own deformity, it often borrows the homely dress of humility. We have the more cause to be jealous of it, because it is a sin most deeply rooted in our nature, and as hardly as any extirpated from the soul.[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2007/1/7 14:35Profile
crsschk
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Santa Clara, CA

 Please read this important article SermonIndex members

Saints.

If there is any one article out of this whole series here to read and prayerfully absorb, might it be this one from Richard Baxter.

There is a paragraph in here that just explains so much about what we do a great deal of here by way of correcting and exhorting and even rebuking at times. I do not know if I have ever heard it put so well and it is so important to understand.

Hope it can be found on it's own, would rather not take anything away from the whole of this by drawing particular attention to it via excerpt.

What an honest and encouraging man of God Richard Baxter was, that we all might emulate his spirit.


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Mike Balog

 2007/1/7 16:06Profile
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: undone

Dear brother Mike,

Have not even gotten into reading so many of these articles that you have shared here, except catching glimps here and there.

One of them though has been lingering especially...

[b][color=000000]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him[/color][/b]

And then this qoute from Spurgeon...

'Now let us think how THIS GREAT SIN BETRAYS 'A SAD EVIL: "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him."'

"If he is a proud man, he is not an upright man."

And lingering right along with it is...

[b][color=000000] Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.[/color][/b]

[i][b][color=000000]Knowledge puffeth up[/color][/b][/i]

Am wondering how much this may be [i]an unknown[/i] with me, being here, taking in so much in the way of knowledge from the past. Am seeing a tendency of knowledge to work in a confidence that is...

My wife and I listened to Part 2 of Prayer and Revival last night, a message given by brother Bill McLeod. I can say I thought he gave a powerfull description of the [i][b]descent[/b][/i] of Christ from glory to the Cross. He made mention that the Scripture says of God,



[b][color=000000]Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high, Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth![/color][/b]

Dear brother, do we have any idea of what humility really is? I do not ask that pointedly to any of you. To think that God humbles Himself to even look upon the things in heaven. And we...clay?

This is probably a mixing of things I've read or heard here recently, but having the thought also that a genuine humility is the beginning of Christian grace and virtue. Seeing it here in our Lords words...

[i][b][color=660033] Blessed are the poor in spirit[/color][/b][/i]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/10 0:44Profile
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 Re:

A link to the message I referred to...


[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13737&commentView=itemComments](2006 Heart-Cry) Prayer and Revival part 2 [/url]

The content is not so much about prayer as it is the humility of Christ.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/10 0:51Profile
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 Pride and Humility

I got to tell you brother, you are a kindred soul ... In that endearing attribute of honestly considering, welcoming the challenges, asking the great questions of ourselves first and others almost secondarily ... That sounds like a contradiction. Perhaps I am thinking of sequence more than anything. [i]First the plank ...[/i].

If there is but a couple of words bearing down, they would be [i]presumption[/i] and [i]honesty[/i]. And as something of a math equation a great deal of the time the math works out to one plus one equals, three;

"I don't know"

And the beauty of that is it is a great relief. Of having to have an explanation for everything. A dogma or a doctrine setup as a buttress to thwart all comers. Something that is almost uncanny that comes about observing ourselves through our words, am speaking in great sweeping generalities here, is how often we can lift ourselves up to ... [i]play God[/i] is the best way I could put it. It may stem off of what you just mentioned; [i]Knowledge puffeth up[/i].

Sometimes the very ease of explaining certain 'doctrines', these that have a certain slant, that may well be but suppositions and opinion and yet can be held without challenge, question and the greatest, consideration. That may be vague but I am thinking along the lines of taking the [i]whole counsel[/i] of the word of God. I keep finding other things coming up, interrupting the thoughts ... [i]what about[/i], this verse and this context, this paradox and that different handling? I am often very afraid that 'we' are strip mining the very mystery of God Himself so that we can box in a doxology, have a creed and a concept ...

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

All that not to say a great deal as well. Not that there is nothing of a fixed sort. The Lord is risen indeed ...

[i]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain... If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.[/i]

Obvious

But indeed our knowledge can puff us up to a great degree, and the higher that balloon ...

Taking something of a left turn here. What I am suspecting more and more, forget that... This is a spiritual life, it is the crux of everything. That it can be cast as abstract, something 'out there', something different than 'practical' principles and injunctions ... It is the natural against the spiritual. Having knowledge is a wonderful thing, especially when it truly dawns on us that having that, opens us up to a real marvelous revelation; It's a drop! The more the pressing into the things of God, the very essence of understanding what and how vast an ocean there is ... It's just dumbfounding. And wonderful!
Everyday approaching the scriptures as if for the very first time ... This morning, recognizing the comparisons of these;

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth; for the spirit would faint before me, and the souls that I have made.


The Lords [i]striving[/i] ... and ours.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/10 10:12Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Pride and Humility

Dear brother Mike,

Quote:
"I don't know"



And doesn't the difficulty in admiting this come back to pride? Have found my-self willing to press a doubtfull conjecture in place of an honest admission of ignorance, especially when arguing, rather than talking. And these attempts at saving [i]victory[/i] or [i]honor[/i], which is a false estimation of self to begin with, are really attempts at self-preservation. We are willing to protect ourselves from any percieved loss even at the risk of lies, obscure, thinly or not-so-thinly veiled, or otherwise.

Why can we not say [i]I do not know[/i]?

We remember where the first enticement to the posession of knowledge was...



[i]...the woman saw that the tree was... to be desired to make one wise[/i]


So much more here that you've shared...


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/10 21:41Profile
Meriwether
Member



Joined: 2006/8/13
Posts: 33


 Re: Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride

This may be the most useful post I've ever read here. I am going to print this and tuck it into my Bible, (my Bible is very fat with loose papers.)

I need to read this again and again.

Thanks.

 2007/1/11 0:06Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Pride and Humility

Hi Meriwether,

Not sure which of the two this is addressing (How wonderful that you are both sharing here!) but am glad you are also finding so much from all this. Could almost wish it was as controversial as it should be ... Just to say that there is so much truth that in a great sense it could almost be retitled "From pride to humility".

Still two more articles that were something of a series and with great appreciation from www.mountzion.org


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/11 1:51Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Pride and Humility

Dear brother Mike, this stood out to me this morning and wanted to share it with you,

[b][color=000000]The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.[/color][/b]



[i][b][color=000000]...he flattereth himself in his own eyes[/color][/b][/i]


And what about those [i]thoughts[/i]...[i]suggestions[/i] which come from within or come from without?

In a message by Brother Mcleod that I listened to recently, he made mention how Satan did not stop with wanting to be equal with God - he wanted to be greater.

Could this be what is meant by...

[i][b][color=000000]until his iniquity be found to be hateful[/color][/b][/i]

Thinking of Exodus 20:4-5.

The more I stay upon this I think the more I am seeing my own need for a right view of God and a right view of me.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/12 20:40Profile





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