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 Literalism without context.

Im a literalist, always have been.
But the deeper Ive studied Gods word, the more I have realized that context takes precedence over literalism, it must or some passages in Gods word are irreconcilable.

I corinthians 7:39 and Romans 7:2-3 are favorites among a few brethren that maintain that marriage is UNconditionally binding as long as the former spouse lives, even if divorce for justifiable reasons is made.

Those two passages are seemingly the rock, the foundation of an unwavering, unrelenting doctrine that condemns to hell those who are remarried while the first spouse lives and refuse to put this second spouse away.

I have personally tried to get them to understand there is a context involved that sheds more light upon those verses to no avail.

In this thread, Id like to simply mimic the apparent legalism contained in this doctrine and apply it to other passages from scripture...to show that context does override what seems to be absolutes in His precious word.

Compare what seems to be a simple, direct statement....

[b]But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
And they that weep, as though they wept not;
and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not;
and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
(1Co 7:29-30)
[/b]

versus...

[b]But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
(1Co 7:33)[/b]

In passage one we have Paul seemingly actually stating that a man should literally live as if he has no wife even tho he clearly does.
Is Paul actually stating that I am to go about my own business, leaving me wife at home perpetually, literally living as if I had no wife?

If so the second passage clearly is contradictory.
These two must be understood together, with ALL of scripture in order to see Pauls intent.



Exhibit B:

[b]1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [/b]

Versus

[b]1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [/b]

Now, passage one clearly says 'cannot sin'
Before anyone with another version makes the cliam that the KJV is rendered incorrectly, I suggest you actually pick up an interlinear bible and see the words for yourself. The words rendered there as 'cannot' are used as 'cannot' in many other passages and mean exactly that.

But the newer translations, even tho not word for word renderings, capture the intent in John 3:9 when they show that we dont "practice" sin after coming to God...after being born of Him.

But the greek shows 'cannot sin'.
It takes context, understanding the WHOLE of Gods word to see that 'cannot sin' is in no way correct if taken literally.
If we were capable of living beyond sin, if we could ever be beyond the ability to sin, then Christ died for nothing.

So we see that context must supercede literalism when two ideas conflict. Gods WHOLE council must be taken into account when 'rightly dividing' His holy word.

God bless





 2006/5/20 21:33
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re: Literalism without context.

Quote:
So we see that context must supercede literalism when two ideas conflict. Gods WHOLE council must be taken into account when 'rightly dividing' His holy word.



Amen.


We should rather think of it as "can not sin."


_________________
Scroggins

 2006/5/20 22:40Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re: Literalism without context.

But in context to cannot sin, who is the only one that cannot sin. It is Christ. Who's Seed remains in him the One that cannot sin? The Seed is the Incorruptable Seed of Christ in you.
By Paul and Peters and John declaration. It is the Christ in you that cannot sin, Not the sinner. This is in context with the rest of the declaration That Christ is our new life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This presents a new problem, how was I crucified? I did not hang on the Cross with Christ in the physical sense, and no scars in my hands and feet. So how do we reconcile our crucifixion? That is what the "I live" is for, for clarification. It is the Spiritual Life of Christ that lives in me and is now my spirit. Here again that Incorruptable Seed of Christ, which is spiritually birthed in my spirit and now the life I live, I live by the Faith of the Son of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. By Grace we are saved through Faith and neither are of ourselves, it is the gift of God.

So back to the context of cannot sin. Can Christ sin? Of course Not. Did He sin ever, of course not. Now the statement "cannot sin" makes sense. The Christ that is in us cannot sin, and His Seed (Christ's own Seed) remaineth in us, (him) specifically as pertaining to me. Then further, the statement "If we say we have not sinned we are liars" which is a true statement from all the conformation that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." Now we can understand 1 John's statement he that is born of God does cannot sin.
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

That is why Jesus came that we sin not. 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; (by the Christ that is born again in us, for Christ cannot sin) but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. Satan out, Christ in.

By birth Christ is in us, just like Mary gave birth when a virgin. Christ was birthed in us by the Seed of the Father, which is Christ, and the life I live is the Spiritual Life of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" is sure. To finish the context: 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Both literal and in Context.

The more we keep our minds on what is true the more The Literal becomes. Context is: Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is (((Christ in you, the hope of glory:))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/5/21 4:15Profile









 Re:

I got lost in your post somewhere.
Do you agree or disagree that WE, as fallen human beings, are ever beyond sin?

I know some calvinists who believe the flesh sins, yet the spirit does not....to reconcile "cannot sin"...is this what you believe?

I read your post and cannot discern if you are saying YOU are literally beyond sin or not.

If you are making that claim, I believe you need to read the scriptures that say you are a sinner still, just as Paul clearly presented himself as, LONG after being born of God.

If you are saying you CAN still sin, then my point is proven...that 'cannot sin' must be taken in context with the rest of scripture.

 2006/5/21 23:07









 Re: Literalism without context.

FOC posted:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Versus

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now, passage one clearly says 'cannot sin'
Before anyone with another version makes the cliam that the KJV is rendered incorrectly, I suggest you actually pick up an interlinear bible and see the words for yourself. The words rendered there as 'cannot' are used as 'cannot' in many other passages and mean exactly that.

But the newer translations, even tho not word for word renderings, capture the intent in John 3:9 when they show that we dont "practice" sin after coming to God...after being born of Him.

But the greek shows 'cannot sin'.
It takes context, understanding the WHOLE of Gods word to see that 'cannot sin' is in no way correct if taken literally.
If we were capable of living beyond sin, if we could ever be beyond the ability to sin, then Christ died for nothing.

xxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

My take on the above is that there is no problem. As long as we remain "in" Christ, we cannot sin. What exactly does that mean?
We cannot be judged for our sin, that's all. We all have sin in our lives, in our bodies of flesh and blood (blood inherited from Adam). Christ made it clear that we sin by thought as well as deed. Just looking at a beautiful woman in lust is the same as committing adultery.
When we sin, we repent, ask HIM for forgiveness, and continue our walk with HIM.

Only the Holiness group have trouble understanding this.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/22 0:00
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

All I am saying is that the Christ that is born again in our spirit cannot sin. My Spirit is His Spirit. Our mind is becoming His mind and still has the old man syndrome in its memory. I can sin and not even know it until the obscure thought or act is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit and He will keep pulling sin to the forefront that the Christ in me can deal with it, and I can become more like Him every day. Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Holy Spirit convicts: Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: He also tells me I am righteous in Christ and all concerned will work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The "all concerned," is, Christ in me, The Holy Spirit baptized into me, God the Father with the Son are One, so God the Father is in me also by my birthing, Myself being the principle Character of all the Work of the Father who prepared this Plan before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as He (God The Father) hath chosen us in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

"I am crucified with Christ," dead to sin and I am being conformed into His image every day, Less and Less of me and More and More of Him.

There is less sin in me now than when I was born again, but all is forgiven and we are new creatures in Christ Jesus being prepared for the Father's House.

Paul fought a good fight and that is our responsibility In Christ, "To Know Him". I am fighting a good fight as Paul said He did. My prayer is, God finds me worth of a good fight also. May we all say when the time comes, we also have fought a good fight. 2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Which is of Christ and not me.


In Christ; Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/5/22 0:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

High Steve,

The life of the flesh is in the blood, which Christ no longer has, "see I have flesh and bone", but no blood, that was shed on the altar of the world at the foot of the Cross, and resurrected a Glorious Body which we will have when this blood seed is planted in the ground. As long as we still have blood in our veins we are carrying sin with in this flesh. The Spirit has no blood, The soul mind has no blood, the flesh by our old father was programmed in sin and we carry sin from Adam by the blood. But we are in the Spirit, and we have the Mind of Christ, The flesh can be controlled and not sin, but we still have the hereditary sin from Adam in the Blood. We don't have to sin. That is how he that is born from above does not sin, and yet still have sin in him. We are saved in spirit, we are being save in soul and we will be saved in body. Then Perfect in Christ Jesus our Lord. Praise God. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, (Spirit) and doth deliver: (Soul) in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; (Body-Flesh blood)

This is the technical statement from the Word of God explaining the separation of Soul and Spirit from the Flesh. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Leukemia is a disease of the blood, they use a bone marrow transplant to cure it if possible. The Statement "dividing asunder of of soul and spirit, and (In addition to) of the joints (which articulate the body) and marrow (which is in direct correlation to the blood, the life of the flesh) and discerner of the thoughts of the intent of the Heart. "Thoughts" are the soul mind, the Heart is the Spirit which is Christ. Notice soul and spirit are separated form the joints and marrow. Soul-mind is where the Holy Spirit operates, the Spirit-heart is where Christ is birthed in us, born again.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/5/22 0:55Profile









 Re:

Your response makes it seem as if you are dangerously close to the same teaching as the calvinists I crossed who pretty much believed their flesh could sin all it wanted, but because of dying to sin, their spirit could not and also would not be held accountable even if their flesh sinned intentionally.

Paul does not teach this in the manner that some seem to.
He struggled against sin in his flesh, that fighting against that sin and also walking in the spirit caused him to state 'there is now no condemnatoin" concerning the sin he did still commit on occasion, but I find nowhere that Paul ever states that he is beyond sin, or that his spirit is so separated from his flesh that it could literally sin all it wanted, even deliberately, yet the spirit would be free from guilt.

Please reference me to scripture that states that your spirit is literally His spirit.

Even as late as 1 Timothy (1Tim 1:15...7-8 years AFTER Romans was written), Paul admits to being the chief of sinners.
I pray that we today havent fooled ourselves into literally believing we are any less.

~65 ad
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world [b]to save sinners; of whom I am chief[/b].
(1Ti 1:15)

"Chief (prōtos). Not ēn (I was), but eimi (I am)"

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
All I am saying is that the Christ that is born again in our spirit cannot sin. My Spirit is His Spirit. Our mind is becoming His mind and still has the old man syndrome in its memory. I can sin and not even know it until the obscure thought or act is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit and He will keep pulling sin to the forefront that the Christ in me can deal with it, and I can become more like Him every day. Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Holy Spirit convicts: Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: He also tells me I am righteous in Christ and all concerned will work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The "all concerned," is, Christ in me, The Holy Spirit baptized into me, God the Father with the Son are One, so God the Father is in me also by my birthing, Myself being the principle Character of all the Work of the Father who prepared this Plan before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as He (God The Father) hath chosen us in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

"I am crucified with Christ," dead to sin and I am being conformed into His image every day, Less and Less of me and More and More of Him.

There is less sin in me now than when I was born again, but all is forgiven and we are new creatures in Christ Jesus being prepared for the Father's House.

Paul fought a good fight and that is our responsibility In Christ, "To Know Him". I am fighting a good fight as Paul said He did. My prayer is, God finds me worth of a good fight also. May we all say when the time comes, we also have fought a good fight. 2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Which is of Christ and not me.


In Christ; Phillip


 2006/5/22 9:22









 Re:

Stever posts to Christinyou:

1 Corinthians tells us that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit eternal life". Only at the rapture, when we receive our new, glorified eternal bodies of flesh and bone (exactly like Christ's) will we be able to be like HIM.

1 Cor 13 tells that we "Now, we look through a glass darkly, but then (at the rapture) we will see him face to face, because we will be like him.
"12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

1 Cor 15:50-58
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
*******************
Luke 24:39-40
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


In conclusion, I believe that we will never be holy with our current body of flesh and blood until we receive our new bodies of flesh and bone at the rapture. Our "holiness" today, before the rapture, is imputed to us by our belief in Jesus Christ, and is HIS holiness that He "puts upon us".

God bless,


Stever :-)

 2006/5/22 11:48
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Love the Lord with all of your being
Love your neighbor as you Love yourself
These two things done you will not commit wrong
Worry not about these doctrinal things
but seek HIS face and you will have your intellectual wealth
The Holy Spirit will reveal all things in faith that is strong


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Scroggins

 2006/5/22 11:54Profile





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