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Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX


Agreed Bro.

I believe I stated in some other thread a while back that many times I think we forget that what we must look for is not the suggested material... but rather the heart behind that material.

Not a single person can say Bro. Blake is oppressed or anything of the sort. As I stated before only Bro. Blake can attest to that. The only thing we can say is that his idea, at the just of it, if understood only for that, is to be rebuked. Not Bro. Blake per se, but this ideology.

We must Bless Bro. Blake and lift him up if he is in the wrong, and if we misunderstand, we must beg him forgive for the ignorance.

Bless you Bro. Blake, keep seeking the heart of GOD.


 2006/5/19 16:56Profile



Scroggins wrote:
Agreed Bro.

I believe I stated in some other thread a while back that many times I think we forget that what we must look for is not the suggested material... but rather the heart behind that material.

Not a single person can say Bro. Blake is oppressed or anything of the sort. As I stated before only Bro. Blake can attest to that. The only thing we can say is that his idea, at the just of it, if understood only for that, is to be rebuked. Not Bro. Blake per se, but this ideology.

We must Bless Bro. Blake and lift him up if he is in the wrong, and if we misunderstand, we must beg him forgive for the ignorance.

Bless you Bro. Blake, keep seeking the heart of GOD.


Stever posts:

beenBlake posted:
[u][b]for I am doing so for Christ. This is what my Lord has asked of me and I know it will not be well received[/b][/u]. Upon hearing this, some people will become upset and/or concerned. Some will accuse me of promoting lies, or having a spirit of the Anti-Christ. I do understand why some will say such things as the bible has been widely believed by the Church as being the Word of God, though it is not. Before I am judged in this matter, all I ask of you is to open your heart and mind. Please let me plead my case, [u][b]for I am doing so for Christ. This is what my Lord has asked of me and I know it will not be well received[/b][/u]


Stever continues:
Based upon what is stated above, by beenBlake, at the very least we must conclude that he is deceived. Christ would never authorize any of this.

I really do not know of any other way of handling this situation. Use scripture in your response, because what beenBlake, who is a Christian, is posting can only be classifed as blasphemous.

How does one Christian respond to another Christian who is in grave Spiritual error? Christ had nothing to do with any of this. What is the way to address someone so hopelessly deceived?

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/5/19 20:33


crsschk posted:

In all honesty ...

I disagree.

"Jesus answered him, “I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing. Why do you ask Me? Ask those who have heard Me what I said to them. Indeed they know what I said.”

And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?”

Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?”

John 18:19-23

It is a question for our hearts as well.

Stever's response:

The example above does really not apply here. The example should be directed to one Christian that has found grave doctrinal error in a brother (another Christian). How would that situation be addressed in the New Testament?

Would really appreciate a thoughtful, Biblically documented answer.

God bless,

Stever :-D


crsschk wrote:
In all honesty ...

I disagree.

Just as unecessary is the jumping to conclussions about motives and intent of our

[Long post snipped]

 2006/5/19 20:41

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


The example above does really not apply here. The example should be directed to one Christian that has found grave doctrinal error in a brother (another Christian). How would that situation be addressed in the New Testament?

Would really appreciate a thoughtful, documented answer.

You are correct, by way of application and thinking on this again I missed something there. To attempt to unravel it now would be just more confussing.

Mike Balog

 2006/5/19 22:36Profile

Joined: 2005/9/1
Posts: 16

 Re: The bible is NOT the Word of God

I understand where you are coming from but I also think you are splitting hairs. Your exposition could have been more succinct and therefore more profitable to the readers.

Just something else to add, brother. The Bible as we have it is His written revealed will. The scriptures are inspired by God. To coin your blog as "The bible is NOT the word of God" puts you in a suspect position and breeds confusion.

I also will add and agree with you that the Bible is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end and that is God Himself. I agree that we must be aware of Bible worship. We must be worshippers of God. However, scripture is one of the safeguards of God towards authentic Christian experience.

I am also aware that there have been countless other saints such as Enoch, Noah, and Abraham who had no Bible but were reputed to have walked with God. It all comes down to the revelation that God has given us and how we walk in that light.

One in Christ

 2006/5/20 12:44Profile

Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: The bible is NOT the Word of God

Dear all,

I have been away on vacation, and though I have a quick minute to post, I will not be able to adequately read everyone's responses for another 10 days at least.

I do want to make something clear. By saying the bible is NOT the Word of God, I am NOT saying the bible is untrustworthy. The bible is inspired of God and is good for testing doctrines. However, just because this is true, does not make it the Word of God.

I am a servant of Christ, saved by His grace, annointed by His sovereignty. Does that make me the Word of God? Christ has used me to speak to countless people, few of which were saved by my words. Does that make me the Word of God? Does that make my words, the words of God?

And yet, this is what so many people do with the bible. They call it the Word of God, and worship it as their Lord.

Indeed, in moments when the Lord has used me as His vessel, my words were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ gave me the words to say, just as it is recorded in scripture. However, this does not make my words the very words of God.

Rather, the only person who ever lived whose words were declared as being the very words of God was Jesus alone. Who else can it be said of such a thing?

And I ask you, what bible has been written by the hand of Christ? What gospel was recorded by His very hand?

We do not have anything written by the very hand of God besides the ten commandments. We have a testimony of what have seen and heard. Do you not see who important it is we have four gospels? Do you think four would be needed if God had written them Himself? Would not one be enough? These are testimonies of Christ. The more testimonies we have, the more God is glorified. Christ is proven by each one.

And what should we say of living testimonies? What do we say of all that Christ does in the lives of each believer? Are these to be discarded? Are they not worthy? Of course they are. We are a body of believers. We have each other to encourage and lift in faith. Did not the early Church give themselves to each other in love? We don't love one another. We live by the book. We would sooner give someone a bible, then sacrifice our possessions or time to help a person in need. Did Christ die for the bible? Or did He die for us?

I have heard it said that this is such a small matter. Why does it matter? Isn't it better that people believe the bible is the Word of God?

Why will you not listen? People's lives are at stake here. Do you not go forth and share the gospel? Do you not take it seriously when people proclaim blasphemy against Christ? And yet you say this is not a serious matter.

Shall we in the Church allow this idolatry to continue? Should we let it go so long as it serves our needs? Would Christ be pleased with this?

And what happens when the bible is taken away? What happens when the Church no longer has scripture? All we have is the Church, the body of Christ on earth by which to help one another. What will you do then? Will you lose faith?

This is a most serious matter. The Church must keep her faith in her husband. He is the one she will one day marry. Christ is King. Christ is the Word of God. The bible is not.

In Christ,


Blake Kidney

 2006/5/22 22:33Profile


Dear Blake:

Christ said many things about the Bible, His Word:

God has placed a lot of importance upon His words.

The Author of our Bible said He would preserve His Word forever, AND TO every generation!

Matthew 24:35 reads, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS shall not pass away."

Psalms 138:2 says, ". . . for thou hast magnified thy WORD above all thy name."

Psalms 119:89 says, "For ever, O LORD, thy WORD is settled in heaven."

The spiritual life-blood of the human race is the word of God.
• It brings salvation: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God. . ." (1 Peter 1:23)
• It produces faith: ". . . faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).
• It produces spiritual growth: ". . .desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" (1 Peter 2:2)

Jesus Christ said in John 6:63, ". . .the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE."

And the first time Satan attacks the human race was a direct attack on the word of God!
Genesis 3:1 says, "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, YEA, HATH GOD SAID. . .?"
Satan planted a small seed of doubt into the mind of Eve. And as Eve questioned the truthfulness of God's Word - the fall of mankind was only a bite away.

Satan's aim of attack hasn't changed!

In Luke 8, Jesus Christ tells the parable of the sower, verses 11,12 read, "Now the parable is this: The SEED is the word of God. . . THEN COMETH THE DEVIL, and taketh away the word. . ."

Satan knows - if he can supplant even a small seed of doubt in God's word - MANKIND WILL LOOK ELSEWHERE!

Never in history has such doubt and confusion over the Bible existed as is today. And nothing has flamed the fire of confusion and doubt over the Bible more than the scores of different translations flooding the scene.

In conclusion, Blake, your statement that "the Bible is NOT the world of God" is exactly what Satan wants to hear. The ecumenical movement, that wants all Church bodies (including Catholocism and Protestantism) to come together as one, supports your position. It is the same Church body that will enter the Tribulation, and become the false church, led by the false prophet.

The idea that we (all Christians) will all come together as ONE Church body before Christ's return to the earth, and share "all things" as the early Church did will never happen. This was tried in Plymouth when the colonists came to America and it failed. Socialism always fails because of man's innate sin nature. There are always some that are willing to let others do all of the work, yet they still want to take an equal share of the fruits of the labor created by others. This utopia that you spoke of in one of your other posts will never happen until He creates a new heaven and a new earth,and we are all in our glorified, resurrected bodies, as described near the end of Revelation, chapter 21.

1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Until that time, we are born into this world alone, and when we leave this earth we leave alone. Our whole purpose for being here is to accept Him as Lord, and once saved, to witness to the lost. With the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, that is our helper, we witness to the lost and in effect are doiNG HIS will by HIM to create the Church body that will spend eternity with HIM.

Today, the majority of the Church body is described in Rev 3:1 as the Church at Laodicea. His evaluation of it? It was neither hot, not cold, and He would spew it out of His mouth.

"15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

We have the Bible, the very "Spirit breathed" words of God, that can be found in the Received Text handed down to us by the Disciples and the early Church. What Bible is that? The King James Bible. In 2 Timothy 2:15 we are ordered to study his word, so that we can rightly divide the Word of Truth (the Bible).

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/22 23:43

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Is it not written?

[i]And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.[/i] Mar 11:17

[u]"It is written"[/u]

93 instances.
A sampling;

And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Luk 7:24-27

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.



82 Instances:

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

2Co 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; [i]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/i] Heb 4:12



50 Instances:

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Mat 7:28,29

Mat 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mar 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (*All of this chapter)

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[b] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [u]even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ[/u], and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;[/b] 1Ti 6:3

[b] All scripture is given by inspiration of God[/b], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:16

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come [u]when they will not endure[/u] sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:



21 instances;

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20-21

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luk 24:25-27

And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Luk 24:32

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:14-17


But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: Eph 4:20,21


Speech written, recorded, heard, absorbed, preached, exhorted, spoken. However you wish to state it, it is Gods word and the Word of God and the Word made flesh.

Mix up the order anyway you choose it is all revelation that has been revealed and recorded, appealed to and IS the Word of God. It is indeed hair splitting that you are doing here and very, very dangerous. It is not mere doctrine or [i]good for[/i] merely that. The Bible is 'cannonised' on one principle alone and that is it's character as well as it's cohesion to it's own revelation. "Scripture interpt's scripture" is not some fanicful, theological high mindedness, but fact. The books that were left out were not by whimsy or vote or opinions of mere men alone. Whatever is displaced has no place against that which has been put in place.

Study it out yourself and reconsider what it is you are promoting here. Take special note of just how it is that cult's are developed, it is always at some point of departure from that which [i]Is written[/i].

Mike Balog

 2006/5/26 9:19Profile

Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619

 Re: The bible is NOT the Word of God

It seems brother Beenblake has more of an issue with definition of terms rather than with the Bible itself.

And He does address an issue which is genuine. That is that the Bible itself can become a substitute for the Lord Himself.

As the Lord Himself said to the pharasee's, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal Life but it is they that testify of Me and you will not come to Me that you may have life."

It must be observed however that in this passage the Lord did not undermine the authority of scripture, but rather pointed out the blindness and unwillingness on the part of the Pharasees to see it's revelation and to embrace it.

What the Lord spoke here says that the scriptures testify of Him and they will not come to Him that they may have life.

The Apostle Paul spoke to Timothy how that from his youth he was taught the sacred scriptures which are able to lead one to a knowlege of salvation which is through faith in Jesus Christ and follows with the well known statement that "all scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine... etc."

What is sure is the scriptures self testimony of it's divine origination and it's authority. But what it reveals conserning itself is that it testifies and reveals the living Christ. And it is this Living crucified and resurrected Christ who is our salvation.

And the poiint made by both the Lord and the apostles is that the function of the scripture is not to impart Life in and of itself but rather to reveal and impart Life in the Son of God whom it reveals and testifies to.

It is quite possible to use the Bible in an unscriptural way as a book of rules, of regulations, of requirements, and to pound this upon people as "the Word of God" when in fact the function of the scriptures is to reveal Christ in whom is Eternal Life.

Speaking of the Jews, the Apostle Paul in 2 cor. 3 says that to this day at the reading of Moses a veil lies over their hearts. But whenever their heart turns to the Lord the veil is removed and we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

Our need is not to disregard the scriptures, but rather to turn our heart to the Lord and apply to Him that the veils may be removed from our heart that we can see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In this way the Scriptures become Life and light to us revealing the Living crucified and resurrected Christ for us to enjoy, to partake of, to experience, to live by.


 2006/5/26 12:19Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


I agree that we might want to be slow to "jump to conclusions" or in the writing of such harsh verbal rebukes (unless completely justified). Before we go around "rebuking in love" (which is often neither a real rebuke nor done in true love) those that simply disagree with us, perhaps we should consider the following.

I imagine that it would be difficult to find any two believers here (or in any fellowship) that totally agree on a given matter. While we mostly agree on what is important (the core doctrines of believers), we all hold to other beliefs and doctrines that are suspect to one another. We must be careful not to slay one another with our words, and by doing so, believe that we are doing God a favor.

While I do not agree with Stever on his [i]KJV-only[/i] beliefs, I do prefer the KJV as the best translation made from the Textus Receptus. But I also respect the NIV as a serious and faithful translation taken from other source texts. But does such a difference in conclusion afford me the right to consider Stever "[i]deceived[/i]?" Or does it allow Stever the right to consider me "[i]deceived[/i]?" Of course not! I am totally entitled to my own opinion about any matter of faith, belief or doctrine -- as long as it does not openly contradict the Scriptures and as long as I truly seek this matter out through much prayer and study.

The problem that often occurs on SermonIndex is that we are often so completely (and sometimes rightfully or prematurely) convinced that we are right in all matters of belief, that we are willing to consider anyone that does not agree with us as "deceived." There are so many doctrinal arguments that become heated. One person believes in [i]KJV-only[/i], the other doesn't. One person believes in "once saved/always saved" (or something to that effect), and another doesn't. One person believes that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues, and another doesn't. One person believes in a pre-trib rapture, and another believes post-trib. One person believes that a woman can preach to men, while another believes that she should sit on a pew with her mouth shut and head covered with a cloth. Such a list, of course, could go on and on. Too often, we are too willing to declare someone a heretic for disagreeing with our particular established belief. We must be careful to love and respect the believer -- even if we do not necessarily totally agree with what he believes.

Yes, there are deceivers in this world. And yes, there are many that are deceived. But the bulk of the arguments made by believers in the SermonIndex forums are not about absolute, undeniable truths. Rather, they are arguments about our (sometimes petty) doctrinal differences. We must be very careful before we state "God told me..." to a fellow believer (or unbeliever for that matter).

How should we discuss doctrinal differences? We should use Philippians chapter 2 as our guide:


3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Are believers able to discuss doctrinal differences without casting absolute judgment on one another's spiritual condition? If we keep our focus always consumed with the love of Christ -- then yes we can.



 2006/5/26 14:26Profile

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