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 Re: (God's) Love is not (only) objective?


Ah! Diane, welcome.

Quote:
Yes, love is objective! If it wasn’t, it would only be an illusion. And trusting in an illusion is false trust.

I also came to the conclusion that [i]now[/i], love [u]is[/u] objective (as well as subjective).

What exercised me enough to post the thread, was the thought that [i]God's[/i] love is not objective. Every bit of objectivity He could have brought to bear against the human race, would have been enough for Him to justify not loving us any more, but, He did not choose that course. He chose, instead, to set forth His love in a way that our fallen, object-pre-occupied minds, can understand - JESUS.

However, even Jesus' love was not objective. He had to be fully convinced in His mind, and give His mind AND HIS BODY fully to the task of loving us. To do that, [i]His[/i] love had to be totally [b][i]subjective[/i][/b]. :-o

 2006/5/21 7:36
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: both objective and subjective

Quote:
To do that, His love had to be totally subjective.


This is key. Love was totally experienced by Christ. He KNEW love because he KNEW his Father.

Of course, that does not in any way exclude the objective FACT of Love. Love is also objective - apart from subjective experience. I press this point to bash at the belief that God is whatever you experience him to be. .. the "higher power" philosophy, where you make up your own reality, and that YOUR truth.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/5/21 8:19Profile









 Re:

by Treasureak on 2006/5/18 14:54:13

Quote:
Love is Submissive... and as we All know love is patient, and kind it does not take into accout any wrong doings, it forgives and it gives, and it gives, and it gives.



If Love is submissive and submission can only be between equals, what does that say about the type of Love you allude to? .... and how do we arrive at it?

[i]God is Love[/i].

;-)rm

 2006/5/21 8:54
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: love is submissive

Quote:
If Love is submissive and submission can only be between equals, what does that say about the type of Love you allude to? .... and how do we arrive at it?


Ormly, I think you brought forth an important point to consider. It's all about the way the word, "submission" is defined.

Worldly thinking tends to use and define the word as the relationship of a subordinate to a superior, but that is not what Jesus taught about submission. He taught us to give up our rights: our rightful places of position, our rightful belongings, or what is rightfully owed to us, for the benefit of others - regardless of how they are positioned on the heirarchal structure. That IS love.

Jesus set the example by surrendering his rightful place of divine authority and power to submit to mankind. That is love. Jesus taught his followers to wash dirty feet. That is submission. That is love - it has nothing to do with hierarchal structures.

A good example is a mother who gets up in the night to feed her crying newborn. Mom submits to junior out of love. She sacrificially gives up her right to sleep in order to meet a need of her subordinate.

So, we can say, love is always submissive. But submission is not always love. One can surrender their rights to a selfish superior power out of fear or desire to avoid flack or rejection. That is NOT loving submission. That does not help the selfish person(s) grow into maturity. Jesus never submitted to anyone's selfish desires. And we are commanded to do likewise.

Do those thoughts bring clarification?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/5/21 13:36Profile









 Re: Love is not objective

Quote:
Love was totally experienced by Christ. He KNEW love because he KNEW his Father.

I'm sure this is true.

This is also how humans learn to love - by being loved, as Yeshua pointed out.

In the context of Christ loving us, I always think of

John 10
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold; one shepherd.
17 [b]Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again[/b].
18[b] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down [u]of myself[/u][/b]. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


This is love.

John 17
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, [b]and will declare: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them[/b].

 2006/5/21 15:00
trxx
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re:

There was a time that God spoke to me about love and for myself it was a revelation. I knew that the fulfillment of God's commandments was love. We are to love Him with all of our heart, all of our strength, all of our mind, and all of our soul, and the second commandment as given by Jesus in His Reader's Digest condensed version of the whole Law and the Prophets, was to love our neighbour as ourselves. I thought it therefore important that I should understand what love was. The first thing that He taughht me was that love is a choice. It is not based on our emotions though we sometimes would interpret whether we love or not by our emotions. That is not to belittle our emotions. But He taught me that despite my feelings I needed to choose to spend time with Him. It was in the use of my freewill that I would express my love toward Him. It took me a while before I realized that I could use the same principles toward others. Just a slow learner I guess. When things are going well it is easy to love someone. It is also easy to study God's Word and to pray when we are feeling near to Him. But we must choose to pray and choose to spend time with Him when we are less than excited. Choosing and doing the right thing to do when it flies in the face of our emotions is an expression of true love. Its easy to love one who loves us but what to do to love that one who hurts us. If we depend on our emotions we will be no different than the rest of the world. We will likely respond just as the world does by returning evil for evil and excuse ourselves by saying that we are not perfect. No, we must choose the right way in these times. Sometimes love is easy, sometimes it is very difficult. But to sum it all up, love is a choice that we make and whether it is an easy choice or a difficult choice depends on the circumstances. Love is not based on our emotions and sometimes is carried out despite our emotions. We say that we fall out of love and it happens everyday in relationships and marriages but all that we are really saying is that we no longer feel the emotion that we first felt. Welcome to the human race. It happens to all. True love is not merely our emotion, it is not merely subjective, it is according to our freewill that we choose to love or choose not to love. God chooses to love us despite how we might treat Him. We are called to the same.


_________________
Bruce

 2006/5/21 16:33Profile









 Re: Love is not objective

Quote:
There was a time that God spoke to me about love and for myself it was a revelation. I knew that the fulfillment of God's commandments was love. We are to love Him with all of our heart, all of our strength, all of our mind, and all of our soul, and the second commandment as given by Jesus in His Reader's Digest condensed version of the whole Law and the Prophets, was to love our neighbour as ourselves. I thought it therefore important that I should understand what love was.

Welcome, trxx,

Thank you for your exposition. That was a beautiful post!

Quote:
True love is not merely our emotion, it is not merely subjective, it is according to our freewill that we choose to love or choose not to love. God chooses to love us despite how we might treat Him. We are called to the same.

And very challenging.

 2006/5/21 17:23









 Re: Love is not objective

Quote:
Love is Submissive... and as we All know love is patient, and kind it does not take into accout any wrong doings, it forgives and it gives, and it gives, and it gives.

Hi Treasureak,

Now that I've seen your post on p30 of the 'Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective' thread, I realised you had posted here, and although I had not agreed with you entirely, the simple statement which I've quoted above, requires to be challenged, in the light of your other questions.

You said: 'love... does not take into account any wrong doings..'

I'm going to stop there, because that simply is not true. If you really believe that, then whoever told you it, was lying abominably. This is a complete misrepresentation of the love of God, which took account of every sin every human will ever commit, and decided to take the judgment for them (the sins) upon [b]HIMSELF[/b].

 2006/5/30 13:21









 Re: (God's) Love is (not) objective?





[color=0000FF]1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


1 John 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [/color]

 2008/2/14 22:39





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