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genuine
Member



Joined: 2006/4/3
Posts: 1
New York

 Tongues

I have a specific question. When does a person receive the Holy Spirit? Reading some of the comments, it seems to me that many believe that one receives the Holy Spirit when he or she has the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with power and fire etc) by getting hands laid on, but what about:

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

You believe, then you receive the holy Spirit. Throughout the new testament I don't see anywhere where one needs to get hands laid on him in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Please explain to me what you think...


_________________
Marina

 2006/5/15 19:27Profile









 Re: Tongues

Genuine posted:

Quote:

genuine wrote:
I have a specific question. When does a person receive the Holy Spirit? Reading some of the comments, it seems to me that many believe that one receives the Holy Spirit when he or she has the baptism of the Holy Spirit (with power and fire etc) by getting hands laid on, but what about:

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

You believe, then you receive the holy Spirit. Throughout the new testament I don't see anywhere where one needs to get hands laid on him in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Please explain to me what you think...



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

You might want to go to the Lounge, and look for the thread "Baptism with the Holy Ghost with Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)", and read through all of the posts. If your questions are not answered, then post here again.

God bless,

Stever :-)

P.S. This might also help.....

I posted this some time ago, that might also help explain the difference between being saved and receiving the down payment of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, that comes upon the believer and empowers the believer to witness to the lost and to have a closer more personal walk with the Lord. They are two different events that is supported by Scripture:

"As you might know, I have personally experienced the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS, MANY YEARS AFTER BEING SAVED. IS THIS SCRIPTURAL?

I have prepared a little Bible study here, that spells it out for me and gives me understanding of what happened to me, in comparison to what occured in the lives of the early Church believers in regards to the Baptism IN the Holy Spirit:

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit versus Salvation

I. Question #1: Is every Christian, those who are "born-again", also baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is, is the baptism in the Holy Spirit automatically received with Salvation?

A. Read John 20:22
"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and *said to them, "22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
The context of this passage is the time between the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. Here Jesus breathes on His apostles, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (that is, they are "born-again", i.e. "saved"). However, the first time that the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs is on Pentecost, which occurred after the ascension.
B. Read Luke 24:49
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed (endued) with POWER from on high."

During this same period between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ascension Jesus promises the apostles the baptism in the Holy Spirit and orders them to wait for it in the city of Jerusalem.

C. Read Acts 1:5
"for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [in] the Holy Spirit not many many days from now."
Again the same promise and order not to leave the city of Jerusalem to the apostles by Jesus, before He was taken up into heaven.

D. Read Acts 2:4
"And they were ALL filled with the HOLY GHOST and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is the point where the apostles received the baptism IN the Holy Spirit. However as we have seen there existed a period of time between where they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were BAPTIZED IN the Holy Spirit. These were separate acts and each have a different reason. Salvation comes with receiving the Holy Spirit, that is we are saved from the penalty of sin. We become sons of God, that is we receive the authority to act as the sons of God. With the baptism in the Holy Spirit we receive the power to act as the sons of God (incidentally, there is a third level where we receive the direction to act as a son of God).

II. Question #2: Ok, I can see that the apostles were first saved and THEN baptized in the Holy Spirit later, but what about ordinary people like me?

A. Read Acts 8:5
"And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming CHRIST to them."
B. Read Acts 8:8
"And there was much JOY in that city."
C. Read Acts 8:12
"But when they BELIEVED Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike."
They were preaching the message of Jesus and His offer of Salvation. They also accepted the message and signs which Philip brought, thus they were "born-again".
D. This is just what Jesus said in Mark 16:15 and 16 "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has BELIEF and has been BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
At this point the people of Samaria are born-again, but nothing has been said, one way or the other, about BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.
E. Read Acts 8:14 through 17
"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they SENT them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.

For He (THE HOLY GHOST) had not yet FALLEN UPON ANY of them; they had simply been baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
Then they began laying their hands on them , and they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit."
Thus, we see that the people of Samaria first were born-again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit later; this is just what we saw with the apostles themselves.

III. Question #3: Are there other examples of people first being born-again,
A Read Acts 19:1 through 6
"And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,
and he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED ?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'.
And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized? And they said, 'Into John's baptism',
And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in Him who was coming after Him, that is Jesus.'
And when they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, the HOLY SPIRIT came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and they were prophesying.
The people had believed the message preached by John about Jesus, they were believers, THEY WERE "SAVED" OR "BORN AGAIN". However they were never taught to be water baptized as the completion of righteousness (enter the death and resurrection as a symbolic act)-they were baptized only for repentence. Also, they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. When Paul told them of these things, first they were water baptized in the NAME of Jesus and second he LAID HANDS on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, these examples from God's Word explain my personal understanding and experience of what really happens to the average believer. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is an entirely separate event that takes place by the LAYING ON OF HANDS. Each of us can see from the above that we do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth, when we are saved, but CAN STILL NOT BE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IV. Question #4: Does this mean that some large period of time must pass between the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

A. Read Acts 10:44 through 48

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word (Gospel).
And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.

These people were Gentiles who were not raised knowing God, they were God fearing people, they were good people. They asked Peter to come deliver the message of salvation because God told them to do so in a vision. These people were not Christians, that is, they were not "saved" or "born-again". Peter delivered the salvation message as stated in verses 34 to 43, in verse 43 he specifically defined the requirement to be "saved", "Of Him all prophets bear witness that through HIS NAME everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins". After this they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. Here the group is preached to, they believed and thus were "born-again". Immediately after the new birth they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, even before the water baptism. This is the only case in the New Testament where this is seen, the normal case is first salvation, then later the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

V. Question #5: Is there a Scripture which lists these sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

A. Read Ephesian 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

VI. Question #6: How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus, first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the baptism IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes with the Holy Ghost, we must as children of God request the baptism from our heart."

 2006/5/15 20:14
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re:

Genuine...you recieve the Holy Spirit and all of God's glorious gifts for you at the moment you are baptized [immersed].

The Holy Spirit was only given through the laying on of hands BY THE APOSTLES and to those that they BAPTISED [touched] as they were led to. When the apostles [those who walked and experinced Christ in the flesh], and those that they delivered the baptism of the spirit to by the laying on of hands, DIED, so too did the ability to deliver the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

Since all the true apostles [those who walked and experinced Christ in the flesh], are dead, we are called to Believe In Jesus Christ, Confess that Jesus is our Lord... the Son of God, the only one given the power to absolve us from God's wrath, Repent of our sinfulness to God and Christ, be Baptized [water immersion] and then, through the power of the Holy Spirit we are to live the life that Jesus has Called us to.

All else that Stever's above is man-made elitism [man's power over men] and although supposedly scrpiturally supported and 'experienced' today, it is more often the individuals believer's lack of trust in the power of Jesus Christ and inability to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit to guide us in the footsteps of Jesus. They cannot free themselves from man's bondage as they feel that they need more that the simple truth of the Gospel. God loves, Jesus saves, the Holy Spirit empowers. We do HIS will, to His glory and for His pleasure.


Read Frederick Dale Bruner's [i]The Theology of the Holy Spirit.[/i] It is a remarkable dissertation that presents all of the doctrine and scriptural evidence of the penticostal church's policy of the secondary 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' and its inherent 'inherited gifts.'

Through the 'doctines' of the pentacostal church, Bruner shows you the power and majesty of the Holy Spirt and His ability to supernatrually empower you to do the Father's work. Bruner then takes the second half of the book to scripturally show where the error of their 'doctrines' lie in the misinterpretation of the scriptures and proves, IMHO that they are totally wrong about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit's 'secondary' nature.

IMHO --Again, the Gospel is so simple... Christ died for us and sent us a helper. We receive our help at our water baptism and its up to us to learn to trust him enough let him work [to the Father's will and for His honor] through us, for it is [b]Him doing the work and not us.[/b] For we were created to glorify God not for him to bring glory to us and our 'gifts.' We are merely extension cord or conduits of His Love, grace and mercy.


_________________
bill schnippert

 2006/5/16 10:55Profile









 Re: Tongues

There three manifestations of the Holy Ghost in the Bible. All are explained in the NT. They are:

"With", "In" and "Upon" an individual. The "Upon" is mentioned metaphorically in Ezk.44.17,18 as a Linen garment typifying the work of the Holy Spirit not being mingled with the work of the flesh or human effort, regardless of how sincere.

:-)rm

 2006/5/16 14:44





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