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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Please dont cause division when it is not necessary. You guys knew what I was referring to.



Hi boomatt,

In all fairness you are correct on the one hand and yet perhaps we are talking past each other. Actually we likely didn't take this into consideration, what you intended, difficult to know until now.

No division intended nor necessary. Perhaps it was more knee jerk then anything, have heard enough of the unfortunate underlying sentiment that was elaborated on in the replies following, that brought out the considerations and concerns.

To look at it on the surface, don't think it was a reach for some of us to see it that way, we didn't really know what you were referring to exactely.

But it is understood with that clarification. Thanks!


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Mike Balog

 2006/5/12 10:50Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

This is turning into a very intriguing thread...

Quote:
....he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.



Yes, another there.
Quote:
And then I know and have shared what I feel bootmat was expressing, how we sometimes just want it all to end, for the Lord to return, and all of this madness to stop which I think brother Rahman has expressed also.



Despite the earlier misunderstandings, certainly a shared sentiment. Some good discussion here brothers.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/5/12 10:58Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

I get so excited when I hear about these things. Not over the clamity, yes while [b]in[/b] the calmity, but the excitement is over the Lord's return no doubt.

Makes me want to scream out from the roof tops, "HIS return fast approaches, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!"

In HIS Love,
Scroggins


_________________
Scroggins

 2006/5/12 12:00Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Sorry guys that I didnt make myself a little clearer. I hope you all have a great weekend


God Bless


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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/12 12:33Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:

Scroggins wrote;
"Makes me want to scream out from the roof tops, "HIS return fast approaches, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!"

--- Part of my burden is believing that He's shown me what it's gonna take for His Bride to be corporately brought (particularly here in America) to this same place ... And tho i have an idea of how judgment will first begin in His house (the knocking down of our idols of ease), i don't know excatly when but my spiritual "spidey senses" are tingling like crazy ...

So why aren't we as preacher/pastor led congregations not shouting from the rooftops REPENT!? ... Again i hate to be a broken record but i believe i hear our Lord's "pounding" intensifying this ...

Rev. 3;
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

We ain't hearing (collectively) folks! ... It's funny how our Lord has me not burdened by the heathens raging for their escalations does in fact make me lift up my head and rejoice of closer deliverance, but He has me very burdened with the lack of His Church's (corporate) raging, the sense of as Art Katz puts it His Body sounding the alarm under a mantle like Amos' ... It may seem sufficient to leave such warnings to be done by a few seemingly over zealous "jesters for Jesus", but what does God say about the strength of "one" compared to that of "two" and then "three" ... You don't get much bar-b-queing done with a single coal ...

That's why this in Amos 6 is so relevant now;
[1] Woe to them that are at ease in Zion (Christ Church) ...
[3] Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near ...

Our corporate laxity in the "great commission" of Christ is eternal death to the world, and a sure fire coming "rebuke" of correction for us ... But of course as Amos (then) and Rev. (now) both point out, we don't really believe it! ... Pro-active repentance never seems to be the modus-opperendi of God's folk. re-active (to God's harsh grace) seems to be our only way ... i think all we saints must be from Missouri (the show me state) ...

If anyone's interested i've pasted Matthew Henry's commentary on Amos 6: 1-7 ... It's long but man does it speak volumes to me in regards us (His Church) and America as a nation ---


Verses 1-7

The first words of the chapter are the contents of these verses; but they sound very strangely, and contrary to the sentiments of a vain world: Woe to those that are at ease! We are ready to say, Happy are those that are at ease, that neither feel any trouble nor fear any, that lie soft and warm, and lay nothing to heart; and wise we think are those that do so, that bathe themselves in the delights of sense and care not how the world goes. Those are looked upon as doing well for themselves that do well for their bodies and make much of them; but against them this woe is denounced, and we are here told what their ease is, and what the woe is.

I. Here is a description of their pride, security, and sensuality, for which God would reckon with them.

1. They were vainly conceited of their own dignities, and thought those would secure them from the judgments threatened and be their defence against the wrath both of God and man. (1.) Those that dwelt in Zion thought that was honour and protection enough for them, and they might there be quiet from all fear of evil, because it was a strong city, well fortified both by nature and art (we read of Zion's strong-holds and her bulwarks), and because it was a royal city, where were set the thrones of the house of David (it was the head-city of Judah, and therefore truly great), and especially because it was the holy city, where the temple was, and the testimony of Israel; those that dwelt there doubted not but that God's sanctuary would be a sanctuary to them and would shelter them from his judgments. The temple of the Lord are these, Jer. 7:4. They are haughty because of the holy mountain, Zep. 3:11. Note, Many are puffed up with pride, and rocked asleep in carnal security, by their church-privileges, and the place they have in Zion. (2.) Those that dwelt in the mountain of Samaria, though it was not a holy hill, like that of Zion, yet they trusted in it, because it was the metropolis of a potent kingdom, and perhaps, in imitation of Jerusalem, was the head-quarters of its religion; and by lapse of time the hill of Shemer became with them in as good repute as the hill of Zion ever was. They hoped for salvation from these hills and mountains. (3.) Both these two kingdoms valued themselves upon their relation to Israel, that prince with God, which they looked upon as masking them the chief of the nations, more ancient and honourable than any of them; the first-fruits of the nations (so the word is), dedicated to God and sanctifying the whole harvest. The house of Israel came to them, that is, was divided into those kingdoms, of which Zion and Samaria were the mother cities. Those that were at ease were the princes and rulers, the great men, that were chief of the nations, chief of those two kingdoms, and to whom, having their residence in Zion and Samaria, the whole house of Israel applied for judgment. Note, It is hard to be great and not to be proud. Great nations and great men are apt to overvalue themselves, and to overlook their neighbours, because they think they a little overtop them. But, for a check to their pride and security, the prophet bids them take notice of those cities that were within the compass of their knowledge, that had been as illustrious in their time as ever Zion or Samaria was, and yet were destroyed, v. 2. "Go to Calneh (which was an ancient city built by Nimrod, Gen. 10:10), and see what has become of that, it is now in ruins; so is Hamath the great, one of the chief cities of Syria. Sennacherib boasts of destroying the gods of Hamath. Gath was likewise made desolate by Hazael, and not long ago, 2 Ki. 12:17. Now were they better than these kingdoms of Judah and Israel? Yes, they were, and their border greater than your border, so that they had more reason than you to be confident of their own safety; yet you see what has become of them, and dare you be secure? Art thou better than populous No?'' Nah. 3:8. Note, The examples of others' ruin forbid us to be secure.

2. They persisted in their wicked courses upon a presumption that they should never be called to an account for them (v. 3): "You put far away the evil day, the day of reckoning, as a thing that shall never come, or you look upon it as at such a distance that it makes no impression at all upon you; you put it far away, and think you can still put it yet further, and adjourn it de die in diem—from day to day, and therefore you cause the seat of violence to draw near; you venture upon all acts of injustice and oppression, and have fellowship with the throne of iniquity, which frames mischief by a law, Ps. 94:20. You cause that to come near, as if that would be your protection from these judgments which really ripens you for them.'' Note, Therefore men take sin to be near them, because they take judgment to be far off from them; but those deceive themselves who thus mock God.

3. They indulged themselves in all manner of sensual pleasures and delights, v. 4-6. These Israelites were perfect epicures and slaves to their appetites. Their dignities (in consideration of which they ought to have been examples of self-denial and mortification), they thought, would justify them in their sensuality; the gains of their oppression and violence, they thought, would bear the charge of it; and they put the evil day at a distance, that they might give them no disturbance in it. That which they are here charged with is not in itself sinful (these things might be soberly and moderately used), but they placed their happiness in the gratification of their carnal appetites; and though they were men in office, that had business to mind, they gave themselves up to their pleasures, spent their time in them, and threw away their thoughts, and cares, and estates upon them. They were in these enjoyments as in their element. Their hearts were upon them; they exceeded all bounds in them, and this at a time when God in his providence was calling them to weeping and mourning, Isa. 22:12, 13. When they were under guilt and wrath, and the judgments of God were ready to break in upon them, they called for wine and strong drink, presuming that to-morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant (Isa. 56:12), thus walking contrary to God and setting his justice at defiance. (1.) They were extravagant in their furniture. Nothing would serve them but beds of ivory to sleep upon, or to sit on at their meat, when sackcloth and ashes would have become them better. (2.) They were lazy, and humoured themselves in the love of ease. They did not only lie down, but stretched themselves upon their couches, when they should have stirred up themselves to their business; they were willingly slothful, and took a pride in doing nothing; they abound in superfluities (so the margin reads it), when many of their poor brethren wanted necessaries. (3.) They were nice and curious in their diet, must have every thing of the best and abundance of it: They ate the lambs out of the flock (lambs by wholesale) and the calves out of the midst of the stall, the fattest they could lay their hand on; and these perhaps not out of their own flock and their own stall, but taken by oppression from the poor. (4.) They were merry and jovial, and diverted themselves at their feasts with music and singing: They chant to the sound of the viol, sing and play in concert, and they invent new-fashioned instruments of music, striving herein, more than in any thing else, to excel their ancestors; they set their wits on work to contrive how to please their fancy. Some men never show their ingenuity but in their luxury; on that they bestow all their faculty of invention and contrivance. They invent instruments of music, like David, entertain themselves with that which formerly used to be the entertainment of kings only. Or it intimates their profaneness in their mirth; they mimicked the temple-music, and made a jest of that, because, it may be, it was old-fashioned, and they took a pride in bantering it as the Babylonians did when they urged the captives to sing to them the songs of Zion; such was Belshazzar's profaneness when he drank wine in temple-bowls, and such is theirs that sing vain and loose songs in psalm-tunes, on purpose to ridicule a divine institution. (5.) They drank to excess, and never thought they could pour down enough: They drank wink in bowls, not in glasses, or cups (as Jer. 35:5); they hate to be stinted, and must have large draughts, and therefore make use of vessels that they can steal a draught out of. (6.) They affected the strongest perfumes: They anoint themselves with the chief ointments, to please the smell, and to make them more in love with their own bodies, and to guard against those presages of putrefaction which they carry about with them while they live. No ordinary ointments would serve their turn; they must have the chief, such as were far-fetched and dear-bought, when cheaper would have served as well.

4. They had no concern at all for the interests of the church of God, and of the nation, that were sinking and going to decay: They are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph; the church of God, including both the kingdoms of Judah and Israel (which are called Joseph, Ps. 80:1), was in distress, invaded, insulted, and broken in upon. As to their own kingdom which they were entrusted with the government of, the affairs of which they were directors of, the peace of which they were the conservators of, great breaches were made upon it, upon its peace and welfare; and they were so besotted that they were not aware of them, so indulgent of their pleasures that they never laid them to heart, and had such an aversion to the thing called business that they were in no care or concern to get them repaired. It is all one to them whether the nation sink or swim, so that they can but lie at ease and live in pleasure. Particular persons that belonged to Joseph were in affliction, and they took no cognizance of their case of the wrongs and hardships they sustained and the troubles they were in, nor took any care to relieve them, and right them, contrary to the temper of holy Job, who, when he was in prosperity, wept with him that was in misery and his soul was grieved for the poor, Job 30:25. Some think that, in calling the afflicted church Joseph, there is an allusion to the story of Pharaoh's butler, who, when he preferred to give the cup again into his master's hand, remembered not Joseph, but forgot him, Gen. 40:21, 23. Thus they drank wine in bowls, but were not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Note, Those are commonly careless of the troubles of others who are set upon their own pleasures; and it is a great offence to God when his church is in affliction and we are not grieved for it, nor lay it to heart.

II. Here is the doom passed upon them (v. 7): Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and shall fall into all the miseries that attend captives; and the banquet of those that stretched themselves upon their couches shall be removed. Their plenty shall be taken from them, and they from it, because they made it the food and fuel of their lusts. 1. Those who lived in luxury shall lose even their liberty; and by being brought into servitude shall be justly punished for the abuse of their dignity and dominion. 2. Those who trusted in the delights and pleasures of their own land shall be carried away into a strange land, and so made ashamed of their pride and confidence; they shall go captive. 3. Those who placed their happiness in the pleasures of sense, and set their hearts upon them, shall be deprived of those pleasures; their banquet shall be removed, and they shall know what it is to fare hard. 4. Those who stretched themselves shall be made to contract themselves, and to come into a less compass. 5. Those who put the evil day far from them shall find it nearer to them than it is to others; those shall go captive with the first who flattered themselves with hopes that if trouble did come they should be the last who should be seized by it. Those are ripening apace for trouble themselves who lay not to heart the trouble of others and of the church of God. Those who give themselves to mirth, when God calls them to mourning, will find it a sin that shall not go unpunished, Isa. 22:14.


--- i don't believe that we the Church can/will ever shout REPENT to the world until we're brought to our collective knees in REPENTANCE before God first and then empowered by Holy Spirit to doing so by REVIVAL ...

Many see this as far off ... i don't! ---

 2006/5/12 13:02Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Bro Rahman,

Your input is wonderful. Your thoughts much echo the burning within me myself. Thank you for your Loving response and the info from Matthew Henry.

Repentance for me is a daily thing. I am most likely the least Holy person on the face of the planet. But what else is there but to try?

I am currently in the process of getting into CFNI for studies. I hope to be a "preacher/pastor" (which in todays world, sadly enough, you must be a "learned man" with a degree to preach; otherwise the people take no ear to what you say) so that I may be able to stand at the front and talk to everyone about the judgment and repentance. I dont claim to be anything other than a complete monstrosity, but to prove myself is far less important to me than to prove Christ's deity and to warn people of a masters return to unruly servants. If I go to hell for the mistakes I've made, so be it, GOD is worthy of that choice and I of HIS judgment. You will not see a single soul that is being sent to hell crying out about unfairness. They will see their cause and scream out in the agony of the revelations. But if I should go to hell at the end of it, good GOD, I will be screaming "REPENT, REPENT, REPENT in the eyes of the Lord GOD, Jesus Christ!" on the way down.

I love you all!

In HIS Love,
Scroggins


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Scroggins

 2006/5/12 13:55Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: translation

Libera me, Domine, in die illa tremenda. Dies illa, dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae.

Dorcas wrote:

Quote:
Help me out, please?



Try this:
Deliver me, O Lord, in that awful day, that day of day of wrath, calamity, and misery.”

It's church music of the past. These Latin words were often sung in in masses, requiems (vocal music in memory of the dead) and used by composers in their arrangements - Bach, Faure..

Sometimes it seems to me that in our day the song on many hearts has changed to “Yippee! God’s coming and I’m outa here!
Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/12 15:50Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

HAHA!

Very funny that you say that Diane. That is very true.

But we should also rejoice at the Lord's return. Because HIS return means so much more than "Yippee! GOD's coming and I'm outa here!"

To carve it down to such a thing is something that should not happen. But is that is really the only thing expressed? Or maybe the only thing we care to recognize?

Maybe we need to look so much not at the statements made, but more so the [b]HEART[/b] behind those statements.

But then again, I'm not a smart man. Oh well, it is just a thought after all.

In HIS Love,
Scroggins


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Scroggins

 2006/5/12 16:05Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: balance

Quote:
Maybe we need to look so much not at the statements made, but more so the HEART behind those statements.


So true, after all, either could be an extreme that arises from unbelief. There is a balance - a quiet trust tempered by the sober awareness of the reality of God's judgment.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/5/12 16:18Profile









 Re: Not again

Quote:
Deliver me, O Lord, in that awful day, that day of day of wrath, calamity, and misery.”

Thanks, Diane. 8-) I'm certainly clearer.

 2006/5/12 16:47





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