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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Derek Prince? Demonology

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Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Quote:
I realise the appeal of insisting that anyone who is demonically oppressed and losing the battle, is not a real Christian, but, that implication is most unhelpful. The only hope a person has, is that the trust they've put in Christ, that He can make good for them.



Sister,

I think you misunderstand what it is I proposed. I [i]did not[/i] and [i]am not[/i] saying that someone losing the battle of the flesh under oppression is "not a real christian."

But in reality what I propose is, that for those that are oppressed have not realized that they have already won through Christ. I myself right now am trusting the Lord in my own battles, ones that I were losing. And I am by no means, a non-believer.

Also what I say is that there is a difference between the oppression of a believer as opposed to a non-believer. It goes a bit like this.

_____________________________________

Believer:
Can be OPPRESSED, but cannot have a demon manifested itself within him/her. But rather the oppression is external. Mental oppression on the other hand is another story and gets a bit more complicated. The mental oppression for a believer is not from an "internal demonic oppression" but rather from ones that are dubbed "Oppressor", name by which they gave as was commanded of them in Christ's name.


Non-believer:
Can be both OPPRESSED and "POSSESSED." Both being able to have demonic oppression physically, mentally and manifested istelf INSIDE them. i.e. "internal demonic oppression." (also known as "Possession")

_____________________________________

Quote:
I believe that those, as it were, outside the person who needs deliverance, cannot and should not, offer to tamper with the basis of their belief that Jesus can release them, by suddenly, right in the middle of battle, bringing up the possibility they are not a Christian. They have enough mental struggle, without having their heart towards God questioned.

OF COURSE, they will see more clearly and feel they know Him better and believe with less effort, after they are free, but, before then the only boat which needs to be rocked, is the oppressor's. Do you see what I mean?



No sister, I imply no such thing to tamper with the belief that Jesus will deliver whose whom are in need of it.

A Christian is a Christian, and should not be swayed by the efforts of Lucifer to believe otherwise due to oppression. While it is good to examine yourself and make sure that all is right between yourself and GOD. Still DO NOT LISTEN to the lies that Satan whispers regarding the doubts in your own salvation. If you feel the need, [b]Pray[/b] for salvation and deliverance every day that you doubt your own salvation.

Yes Sister, Amen, we do need to rock the oppressor's boat. Satan himself will flee in the very mention of the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, his Lord. Satan is no more than an unruly servant himself and cannot stand up to the power of Christ our GOD.

I see what you say dear Sister. But perhaps you may want to re-read what I have said, in light of the clarification I hope I have brought to my arguement.

Feel free to make me clarify what I say untill you can [b]clearly[/b] understand it, as I am not a very smart man and do not always communicate my message well.

In HIS Love,
Scroggins


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Scroggins

 2006/5/19 19:14Profile
leaf
Member



Joined: 2006/2/27
Posts: 12
sheffield, UK

 Re:

Hi, I just want to clarify a comment I posted earlier. I do not believe a Christian can be possessed by a demon but, I do believe a Christian can be oppressed by a demon or demonic forces. Those Christians delivered from demons are, in my view, delivered from oppression not possession. I did not wish to imply that those who needed deliverance were not Christians; only that they were not possessed. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone!


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nicholas bye

 2006/5/20 5:59Profile









 Re: Derek Prince? Demonology

Scroggins and leaf,

I hear what you are saying and thank you both for helpful clarifications. particularly with regard to not challenging a person's belief system, who claims to be a Christian, right when they need help to win against the enemy.

However, I testify to you in Jesus Name, that the body is not an empty vessel like a cup, which is either partly full or full of the Holy Ghost only, or, has nothing spiritual in it, or, has bad spirits in it, or oppressing it.

Bad spirits do (or can) affect [i]parts of the body[/i] with specific bondages due to past sins or invisible injuries, which Jesus Christ can free [i]the body[/i] from, if the person is willing.

I 'hear' that the word for 'possession' is not in the Greek, and I can go along with that, because the Holy Spirit is always going to be more powerful than a demon. But exactly [i]because[/i] the Holy Spirit is always more powerful than a demon, there is, in my understanding, no conflict in the thesis that the body can be a battleground, whether a Christian's body or a non-Christian's body.

There is a great verse at the beginning of Psalm 24: The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.

If you can bear with these two pictures - the earth - Adam, formed from the dust of the ground - and Canaan, the promised land - [i]both[/i] were inhabited by 'an enemy'; Adam, by sin - a spiritual enemy - and Canaan, by giants - a physical enemy.

Can you see, using these two pictures, how the liberation of Canaan into Israel's hands, is a picture of the liberation from domination by sin, of the human body? The overcoming and slaying of 'enemies' - strongholds, as Paul calls them in 2 Cor 10 - is part of the normal Christian life.

Most of us have strongholds that cross between the mind and the body - attitudes to what we might legitimately think / think about, or how we might spend our time [i]doing[/i] what we like, or are accustomed to doing. All this has to be challenged by God, in His timing, and we have to capitulate to His will to set us free.

Simply because Paul does not mention 'demon' in his reference to casting down strongholds, does not mean there is no spirital influence in them, but, I fully agree that God [b]places[/b] victory in our hands, should we wish to lay hold of it by the blood of the Lamb. (Heb 10:14)

I do see the blood as instrumental in winning the battles. While [i]will[/i] is involved - that is, we do have to [i]decide[/i] we want victory - the battle is spiritual, and won only through the blood. Our [i]willpower[/i] cannot free us, by hard work alone.

Many Christians, it seems, do not really understand they can be set free from the propensity to sin. This seems to be because of crazy doctrinal disputes, which move them off the ground of scripture, or, of a lack of knowledge of scripture, or simply not being able / willing to believe it when preached properly to them. I don't know. I'm only guessing, really. I just know what God has done for me, and that if He could deliver me, as a Christian, from all that was thrown at me and found a resting place in my life, then, He can deliver anyone who wants His liberty.

2 Corinthian 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, [b]when your obedience is fulfilled[/b]. (KJV)


Fulfilling obedience, is the same picture as bringing forth fruits meet for repentance. God expects to see a change working through to one's outward life, where others also will see it.

 2006/5/20 8:59
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: chiming in

I've watched this thread as it were from a distance not knowing if it would be prudent to add to it. I will add an illustration, not to what has already been stated, but to add to the topic at hand. I've observed individuals who have, for what ever reason, not taken up the shield of faith which quenches the fiery darts of the devil, and become demonized (I'm not even going to get into the whole area of flesh vs besetting sins and weights etc...). Now I liken that to the picture of (please forgive me in this illustration) a little 2year old who while shopping with his mother desides to take on a fit for something he/she wants or desires to exercise thier will against the mothers will. At that point the contest is on. The future happiness of the mother is greatly dependant upon the success of that mother at such points in time. Its much the same in the christians life. A christian has the authority to overcome all evil spirits. Going back to our illustration, you'll observe that at time that 2 year old just won't relent or let up. (I'm going to take this a different direction from spanking - correcting - or removing the child, ignoring etc...). In those cases you'll observe that often an Older woman will sometimes come to the help of the mother with the difficult child. She comes along side of that mother as a helper. I'll let you guys fill in the blanks. Some times a neighbor to, the mother with a difficult child, will just speak a word to that child to distract him/her from thier tantrum and in that gives the mother time to re-group her emotions and mental state long enough to get a fresh grip on the matter at hand. This illustration of demonized is one which I have always understood as accurate in most (Not All) cases where a christian is vexed or demonized. (I'm not going to approach the subject of sin, flesh, or weights vs demonization, neither am I going to approach the way demons identify with the individual or the ranks of demons).


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D.Miller

 2006/5/20 10:34Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Quote:
However, I testify to you in Jesus Name, that the body is not an empty vessel like a cup, which is either partly full or full of the Holy Ghost only, or, has nothing spiritual in it, or, has bad spirits in it, or oppressing it.



I agree that it is not a cup. It is much more complicated. But I used that analogy to describe the filling in Spirit. I also agree that there is no partly full. There is only filled and not filled in the Holy Spirit.

We must for this conversation define what it means to have the Holy Spirit. Where is it that this Holy Spirit dwells?

The Holy Spirit dwells within us. But untill we are born again in Christ we are dead. Being dead Spiritually speaking means that we do not have the Holy Spirit filling us. We are indeed vessels. When filled with the Holy Spirit, there can be nothing else within us.

So if that is true, and we cannot have anything in us other than the Holy Spirit (only when we are in Christ), then how can Christians still be plagued by demonic forces?

Before I go on with this one part, I must say what muddies up the water for everyone else who is a real Christian on this topic is the simple fact that you do, in today's age, see a lot of so called "Christians", demonized or whatever you may have it. You see countless self proclaimed Christians under demonic control. And that is because of the mere TRUTH that not everyone who is a "Christian" really is. And there will be those that are "possessed", as you will, that claim to be. Which in turn makes everything a bit harder for everyone else to discern on this topic.

Now we know that most oppression comes from two things. Disobedience to the Lord, whether it be past things that have not been layed to rest, or events of recent. And oppression due to your being a believer who is doing GOD's will.

But oppression for a saved individual is not "possession." And everyone here can attest that having influence is not the same as having control either.

So can Christians be influenced by demons?

Yes, they can be influenced by demons, if they do not discern and test all things with the full Armor of GOD.

But "possession" once again is only a word [u]for the lack of a better term.[/u] This term "possession" as we know it today describes the CONTROL that demonic forces have over someone.

Quote:
Bad spirits do (or can) affect parts of the body with specific bondages due to past sins or invisible injuries, which Jesus Christ can free the body from, if the person is willing.



Sister, this is 100% correct. I do not disagree with you in the slightest.

Quote:
I 'hear' that the word for 'possession' is not in the Greek, and I can go along with that, because the Holy Spirit is always going to be more powerful than a demon. But exactly because the Holy Spirit is always more powerful than a demon, there is, in my understanding, no conflict in the thesis that the body can be a battleground, whether a Christian's body or a non-Christian's body.



Yes, there is not a word like that in greek. The term "possession" is for lack of better terms to describe what kind of casting out has been done in some cases.

The body (Christian or not) a battleground?

Yes and no. Yes it is a battle ground. But not in the way we would think. As REAL Christians, demons may attack our bodies and minds but can not control them. They can trick us, hurt us physically and even mentally, tell us things or control people around us that are unsaved to hurt us / tempt us. It does happen. But as a person born again in Christ, it is vital to remember that they only have as much power over you as you allow them in a sense that is dependant on Christ.

The only control that a demon has over a person Alive in Christ is the submission to the demonic oppression.


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Scroggins

 2006/5/20 12:28Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Romans 6:16

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness."
___________________________________________


Romans 8:5-8

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
___________________________________________


Galatians 5:24

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"
___________________________________________

James 4:7

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
___________________________________________

Luke 10:18-19

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."


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Scroggins

 2006/5/20 12:36Profile









 Re: Derek Prince? Demonology

Quote:
When filled with the Holy Spirit, there can be nothing else within us.

So if that is true, and we cannot have anything in us other than the Holy Spirit

Hi Scroggins,

This quote from you is theory..... well-embraced, reasoned and believed-in ...... but theory nevertheless.

Look at how Legion ran to meet Jesus AND WORSHIPPED HIM. But, he was full of demons by whatever definition anyone uses.

Mark 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

I don't have anything more to say at this time, but, because I believe you are fairly new to this site, are you aware there is an old thread about the difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit, and being baptised in the Holy Spirit? I admit I have not read it all, but, it is a deep and useful discussion.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3132&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3132&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go[/url]

 2006/5/20 13:22
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Yes, but even Satan himself is accountable to Christ. Christ is supreme... Christ is GOD. Make no mistake, demons do recognize the deity of Jesus. They know of HIS power and are still under HIS authority.

And yes, there is a distinction. When we are saved we recieve the Holy Spirit and are thus filled. But in the Baptism by fire, we have the Spirit active in our lives, like being released from a cage. It begins to actually play more of a role in our lives so much more than we do ourselves because we have given ourselves up.


_________________
Scroggins

 2006/5/20 13:28Profile









 Re: Derek Prince ? Demonology

Quote:
Yes, but even Satan himself is accountable to Christ. Christ is supreme... Christ is GOD. Make no mistake, demons do recognize the deity of Jesus. They know of HIS power and are still under HIS authority.

Scroggins,

I agree wholeheartedly.

My experience of deliverance, though, is that I knew far more about how I'd been affected [i]after[/i] I was free, than before.

I think there is the idea in most people's minds that if someone is being troubled by a spirit, they are at least partly culpable for letting that spirit so close.

No-one seems to understand, that people can just find themselves [i]struggling[/i], and unless someone with insight (or discernment), draws alongside, or they themselves are willing to believe this may be a simple spiritual matter, it cannot be addressed; their struggle goes on, enhanced by denial.

There's a great deal I don't know about how I got free - or, as free as I am now - except to say that I did not rule out spiritual bondage, and I DID put myself completely in God's hands to [b]be[/b] set free..... time and time again..... because that seemed to be the only way to regain the territory in my life, which had been variously abandoned to, attacked by, or cultivated (unknowingly) for the opposition.

Yes. The Name of Jesus is Supreme and well able to break the powers which oppose His reign. Amen.

 2006/5/23 14:33
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

AMEN SISTER LINN!!!!


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Scroggins

 2006/5/23 15:22Profile





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