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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Derek Prince? Demonology

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Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Thanks for your testimony. Praise God that God delivered you from the demonic when you first got saved. But there are others on this site and in other places that have a testimony that differ and happen to be on the other side of the argument as well.


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Giancarlo

 2006/5/18 12:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Forevidence wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for your testimony. Praise God that God delivered you from the demonic when you first got saved. But there are others on this site and in other places that have a testimony that differ and happen to be on the other side of the argument as well.


Are you sure that they are'nt just confusing being demon oppressed with demon posessed?

 2006/5/18 12:27Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:


Are you sure that they are'nt just confusing being demon oppressed with demon posessed?




Well according to Derek Prince the word 'possessed' doesn't even exist in the greek language.

Evangelical Dictionary of Theology says:

The specilaized expression for Demon possession(daimonizomai) is not found in the scriptures. Scholars trace it to Josephus. The common synoptic construction is daimonion echein(to have a demon).

Greek expressions and words describing demons and their influence:

A. Terminology

1. “Devil” (Greek diablos)= Slanderer, a title of Satan himself.
Used only in the singular.

2. “Demon” (Greek diamon or diamonio): A spirit regarded by heathen as divine or semi-divine. Heathen religion normally cultivates or seeks to appropriate these ‘demons.’

3. Wrongly translated in KJV as ‘devil’ or ‘devils.’ Used interchangeably with ‘evil spirit’ or ‘unclean spirit’ (compare Matt 15:22 with Mark 7:25; Mark 5:2 with Luke 8:27. See also Rev. 16:13-14.)

B. Three different greek expressions normally used to describe the influence of demons

1. To have an unlcean/evil spirit. See Matt. 11:18; Mark 7:25; 9:17; Luke 4:33; 8:27; 13:11; John 7:20; 8:48-49, 52; 10:20-21

2. To be in an unclean/evil spirit (Modern English-to be under the influence of.) See Mark 1:23; 5:2

3. To be demonized. KJV incorrectly translates to be “possessed with devils.” There is nothing in the greek to support the use of the word “possessed,” which is completely misleading. See Matt. 2:24;8:16,28,33; 9:32; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15, 16, 18; Luke 8:36



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Giancarlo

 2006/5/18 12:51Profile









 Re: Derek Prince: Demonology?

Quote:
Well according to Derek Prince the word 'possessed' doesn't even exist in the greek language.

Forevidence,

I'm glad you're purusing a truly biblical search for understanding on this. I'm willing to change how I describe my testimony of deliverance from the influence of 'demons', but I'm aware from my reading - particularly of The Roaring Lion by missionaries to Borneo, that there is a hierarchical and geographical 'territory' associated with some spirits, and some do not venture 'into' the person at all.

That there are differences in the manifestion of demonic influence, is clear from scripture. Also, Jesus said

Matthew 17:21
Howbeit this kind goeth not [b]out[/b] but by prayer and fasting.

Is the word 'out' correct?

 2006/5/18 18:50
leaf
Member



Joined: 2006/2/27
Posts: 12
sheffield, UK

 Re:

That there are differences in the manifestion of demonic influence, is clear from scripture. Also, Jesus said

Matthew 17:21
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Is the word 'out' correct?


The word used here does mean 'to make go out', or even discharge as in bodily discharge. The Greek word is used several times in the NT but never (as far as I can see) gives the impression of casting off rather than casting out. The problem is though it doesn't resolve the debate as to whether Christians can be possessed or not. I know that there are two sides to the debate but, I still find it difficult to square the idea of Christian possession with my own experience. but, of course it is the word of God that is the arbiter not my experience. I would not wish to be dogmatic on it until I had thought and prayed it through for a time. But, I do feel a strong conviction my self, if that makes any sense. :-)


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nicholas bye

 2006/5/19 8:12Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; 46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

It is interesting to see that Luke uses the same phrase "cast out" to describe not only Jesus exercising demons out of somebody, but at the same time used for the temple cleansing scene in the gospels. The same greek term is used in each, "ekBallo." ekBallo is a compound verb coming from the greek preposition "ek" meaning "out." Ballo is a greek verb that literally means "to throw." Thus, when Jesus set individuals free from demons, he literally threw them out of a person much as he did the moneychangers from the temple.


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Jimmy H

 2006/5/19 14:38Profile
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

My understanding of this is that Christians can (and most certainly are on a regular basis) attacked and oppressed by demonic forces.

Possessed? No.
Oppressed? Yes.

That is, as far as a believer is concerned. I have been witness of such oppression as well as subject to both physical and mental oppression.

The difference here is that, demonic presence in the believer's life is "cast out" in a sense that they are more so "cast away" rather than the "cast out" which implies that they were manifested in them. They cannot enter the body when the believer is already filled in Spirit.

(Example: You cannot fill a cup that is already overflowing. There is no more room for such a manifestation.)

This is not always so in the life of a non-believer. They are easily overcome by that presence because they are not filled, are not overflowing and thus, can be filled with other manifestations other than the Holy Spirit. Every other "religion" in the world has a "born again" experience. Even those that do not believe in GOD have these "born again" experiences. But these "experiences" are just that, they are not real. Just a ploy from Lucifer himself to keep them from salvation and the truth.

The non-believer is not filled and is thus an empty cup, leaving room for "possession." Possession, I believe, is merely a word to describe the internal [u]oppression[/u] of a person that is not of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, our Lord, our GOD, our Savior.

In Christ,
Scroggins


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Scroggins

 2006/5/19 15:45Profile









 Re: Derek Prince? Demonology

Quote:
They cannot enter the body when the believer is already filled in Spirit.

There is big difference between an empty cup and a body.

When making such a bold statement - a Christian [i]cannot[/i] experience 'internal oppression' from any evil spirit - you are creating a huge problem for those men and women who are following Christ to the best of their ability, but battling with overwhelming spiritual opposition, which they alone cannot shift.

I don't dispute that the Holy Spirit is stronger than any other spirit, but, we know the blood of the Lamb shields our Father's sensibilities from seeing us in our sin, and not all demonic opposition is because of sin. Some of it is because of past trauma, and some of it is simply [i][b] because[/b][/i] they are following Christ.

Whatever ground, or 'room' there is in our temple, which is vulnerable to be taken, or, is already a stronghold when we come to Christ, can be delivered into the freedom and healing which Jesus brings.

To dismiss all the testimony from Christians who were delivered from a spirit which continually or intermittently molested their peace, their sanity, the emotional equilibrium or the desires of their body, is to leave them without hope of [u]ever[/u] finding relief.

This simply is [i]not[/i] the Lord's heart towards those who struggle with this kind of susceptibility or defeatedness. Rather than trying to have our doctrine all cut and dry, let's develop a compassionate attitude to those who may be in the grip of a spirit who opposes their walk with God - in whatever way it does - and be ready to help them find deliverance.

It doesn't matter if they 'say' they are or are not a Christian. What matters more, is that one of God's children needs His help and our help, to connect them with the power to free them from bondage.

 2006/5/19 16:05
Scroggins
Member



Joined: 2006/4/13
Posts: 129
Dallas, TX

 Re:

Quote:
...Christians can (and most certainly are on a regular basis) attacked and oppressed by demonic forces.

Possessed? No.
Oppressed? Yes.



Our bodies, metaphorically, much like a cup (as believers and Christians) are filled and OVERFLOWING with the Holy Spirit. Nothing else may be inside of us but the Holy Spirit.

But when not filled and OVERFLOWING with the Holy Spirit, but dead in Spirit, tell me what lives inside? What protects us from such a thing like "possession?" Nothing Dear Sister.

Demons are real, oppression is real, deliverance is real. Whether you be a Christian or not, and whether you believe it is real or not. [b]IT [i]IS[/i] REAL![/b] I do not discredit those who have had deliverance from evil. But am one of them myself.

Quote:
When making such a bold statement - a Christian cannot experience 'internal oppression' from any evil spirit - you are creating a huge problem for those men and women who are following Christ to the best of their ability, but battling with overwhelming spiritual opposition, which they alone cannot shift.



Dear Sister, what problem? If they are filled with the Holy Spirit of our GOD, Jesus Christ, then how can there be another which is not of GOD within? There cannot be. And it is true they cannot shift the battle alone, for Lucifer is strong. Stronger than any man. But Christ is stronger and HIS Holy Spirit is with us. Demonic presence cannot enter a [i]real[/i] saved individual.

True Sister, not all oppression is due to disobedience. Some is attack because you do what is right, and because you follow GOD. But remember, when Christ was on the cross, when HE came to this hell bound earth, HE won the battle already! We have already won. Do not let yourselves be slaves to lies that Satan would whisper in your ear and have you believe them. You are redeemed, you will not see spiritual decay. I pray that anyone oppressed would cast these oppressors aside and not let them march over you anymore.

I have been attacked by demonic entities, both physically and mentally. I have seen these demons for what they are, as if I saw flesh and blood. I have talked with these demons, and I have seen their faces inside those that would deny Christ when being spoken to of HIS grace in salvation.

I have encountered IN MY OWN WALK, much demonic oppression both on myself and on others and do not make these claims without knowledge of them.

Sister, and for that matter, EVERYONE. Forgive me if I misunderstand what you say as a rebuking statement. Forgive me if I am too harsh with my words and cause wound or scar. I do not wish to damage the hearts of HIS saints and would rather suffer in hell for all eternity than to do so.


_________________
Scroggins

 2006/5/19 17:30Profile









 Re: Derek Prince? Demonology


Hi Scroggins,

I realise the appeal of insisting that anyone who is demonically oppressed and losing the battle, is not a real Christian, but, that implication is most unhelpful. The only hope a person has, is that the trust they've put in Christ, that He can make good for them.

Here, really I'm talking about the psychological warfare of victory, and that's all. I believe that those, as it were, outside the person who needs deliverance, cannot and should not, offer to tamper with the basis of their belief that Jesus can release them, by suddenly, right in the middle of battle, bringing up the possibility they are not a Christian. They have enough mental struggle, without having their heart towards God questioned.

OF COURSE, they will see more clearly and feel they know Him better and believe with less effort, after they are free, but, before then the only boat which needs to be rocked, is the oppressor's. Do you see what I mean?

And no, you were not harsh.

 2006/5/19 17:49





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