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linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Stever wrote:

Quote:
Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and upon His death and resurrection is the requirement to be saved.


Linda replied:
Quote:
the devil believes this about Jesus also. That word believe ought to be examined.


Stever responded:
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I wonder what the thief on the cross would have to say about your opinion?



This is my take on it: the word "believe" had a deeper meaning than the one we give it today. You can say you believe something to be true as an opinion, or you can believe the Word of God is true (as the devil does) but Christ wants more than this, He wants us to belong to Him. The devil believes Christ is the Son of God but that does not make him saved.

BELIEVE: Conviction or trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher perogative and law of soul (Blue Letter Bible).

The thief on the cross was obviously convicted of the fact that Jesus was the Messiah. But his heart was involved in this too. It was suddenly made clear to him. He was exclaiming the fact that Jesus was the Messiah. He had just discovered the real truth.

My main reason for wanting to examine this word is that there are quite a few 'believers' I have met that just believed the text and have not been convicted or had any real experience of God that they can claim that He knows them or they know Him, there is no intimacy with Him. They are staying in that mode of thinking and do not know Him. It is only thinking, not experience of God. God must be experienced. This Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an event and God demonstrated the proof of it in the book of Acts where at the time that it was received there were certain signs, so the unbelievers looking on would know this was God.

I believe some are afraid of this power, seeing all the manifestations in certain gatherings which are not of God. I can understand this, I was the same. God can break through this if we are willing to trust Him and go forward and seek all that He has for us. He will always lead us on if we seek more of Him. Our Lord said that the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/26 9:00Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
Smith Wigglesworth, threw out a challenge to any person who could prove that he has the Baptism without speaking in tongues - to prove it by the Word that he has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit without this evidence. He said that many, as he did, have a rigid idea that they have received the Baptism without the evidence.



I have seen many with this evidence. But I have also seen many more who claim to have it, but their fruit says another thing (of course not all people, all my friends speak in tongues). If you rely only on this evidence, then Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and all the other false teachers have this baptism. Do you think they do? I have been in a congregation where the pastor spoke in tongues and litterally right after, talked about how you are going to be rich, while ignoring a homeless man that just came in. Is this the evidence I need.


Also, the thief on the cross was told that this day you will be with me in paradise. I like to believe what Jesus said. I also know of many people that had family members who got saved right before they died. For example: Carter Conlon(listen to chopping wood for the father), tell him that his dad wasnt saved, because he sure thinks he was (as well as me).

read 1 corinthians 13:1.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/26 9:06Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

linda,

You are right. Smith Wigglesworth did speak in tongues. The other nine I mentioned did not.

Wigglesworth, though he spoke in tongues, did make a distinction between the 'gift' of tongues, and the 'baptism,' as two seperate occurances.

Thanx for the correction.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/5/26 9:15Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Boomatt wrote:

Quote:
If you rely only on this evidence,


I agree with you about the falseness in the church. The point I believe Wigglesworth was making was that at the actual time of the Baptism tongues were in evidence. He did not speak in tongues after this. A long time later he received the gift of tongues which is not what came at the Baptism. The tongues at the time of the Baptism were evidencing the Holy Spirit falling upon them. Don't forget, the disciples were given power before Jesus died, to perform miracles and cast out demons. Also, on resurrection day He breathed the Holy Spirit upon them. All this was before they were told to wait until the Holy Spirit came to endue them with power.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/26 9:32Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: Baptism in the Holy Spirit

TO ALL WHO REPLIED:

I am now able to see that certain people did receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire whereupon they were endued with power from on High, and did not receive tongues at the time of their Baptism in the Holy Ghost. I have now read the testimony of certain great men, who did not receive tongues, BUT they can account the experience as having a PRESENT, absolutely awesome encounter with the Holy Christ, which they could explain as being a definite experience, with their SENSES being affected in a great way; the AFTERWARD RESULT of this experience of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost was a completely altered ministry for the better, where the same Word of God was preached but with far greater results, in numbers of conversion.

Therefore I see this Baptism as a definite experience that has a testimony attached to it AT THE TIME of the experience. Never to be repeated. However, there is some maintaining to be done, someone likened it to a bottle filled with water with some impediment in it, and if the tap is kept full on the impediment will be swept away. In my own experience the fullness is maintained by being very closely entwined by the heart, by the private intimacy with the Living God which produces praying in the Holy Spirit, singing songs to Him (He will even give us songs to sing, in English or in the Spirit) and generally in adoration of Him, thinking of His loveliness and many other things which will maintain the filling of the Holy Spirit.

In certain situations when I sense that there is something He is impressing on me to say, or even to read out a certain scripture for the edification of the Body, I have felt a billowing up inside, and an absolute conviction to speak out (even if I am afraid to) and it comes forth as I take that leap of faith that it is from Him. It is all to be held before the Body to discern if it is of Him. And people will normally say an amen if it is so. This is how it works in the assembly that I am joined to.

Thank you for all the wonderful (and sometimes tense!) accounts, advice and information and testimonies which have given me much to ponder on.

In His Love
Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/26 10:24Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Amen, Hal (letsgetbusy)

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Logic wrote:
Quote:
it is [b]AN[/b] evidence, but not [b]the[/b] evidence.

Since Holy Spirit baptism is an IMMEDIATE happening, not unlike water baptism where one gets all wet, what other IMMEDIATE evidence could there be except something such as tongues, in your estimation? Certainly it was the only evidence given in Acts 2; 10 and 19.

Orm.. :-)

It was not the [b]only[/b] evidence given in those chapters.
The danger is to look over the greater evidences and see what you want to see.
I do agree that toungues was a preasent evidance, but I keep it as Paul has it, the least of the gifts.

Acts 2: The evidence is that they they recieved boldness.
Before the Spirit came upon them, they were all in the upper room with out power.
[b]Acts 1:8[/b] [color=990000]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[/color]
Thge power is to be effectual witnesses.

Acts 10: An evidence is that they were magnifying God & extolling HIS majesty.

Acts 19: An evidence is that they were they all prophesied. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.(Rev. 19:10b & 1 Samuel 10:10-11)

What do you mean Holy Spirit baptism is an IMMEDIATE happening, not unlike water baptism where one gets all wet?

 2006/5/26 10:55Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
What about the 85 year old man, that is on his deathbed, repents of his sin, and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord, and dies 1 second later?



He didn't have time repent but only ask to be forgiven.

How much time does one need to turn away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, which is what true repenting is?
[b]Acts 20:21[/b] [color=990000]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [b]repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b][/color]
Quote:
There are presently in heaven many who were never born again in their earthly life. Can you agree with that? If you can, where does that take in your thinking?

That contradicts scripture and is heresy.
Proove such claims with Chapter & verse when making them.

 2006/5/26 11:09Profile









 Re:

I have Wigglesworth' teaching and much he can't explain scripturally or otherwise. God will do what He will do. If Wigglesworth wants to place his understanding/persceptions in there well, what can I say. Let God be true and every man a liar, right? It doesn't releave us of our responsibility to seek God. And it doesn't negate the teaching of Paul and the evidence given that we should expect to be the norm. Wigglesworth attested to this truth.

Orm

 2006/5/26 14:01









 Re:

Quote:
That contradicts scripture and is heresy.
Proove such claims with Chapter & verse when making them.



That's easy but first let me ask the question: who could be born again before the cross? ---Who were they held captive in Abrahams bosom, paradise, that Jesus set free ---Hmm?

Seems some here need a good Bible 101 course.

Orm

 2006/5/26 14:06









 Re:

Quote:
It was not the only evidence given in those chapters.
The danger is to look over the greater evidences and see what you want to see.
I do agree that toungues was a preasent evidance, but I keep it as Paul has it, the least of the gifts.



But we are not speaking of a gift but evidence. The baptism, in this context is the gift; the promise of the Father with the evidence of tongues. That is NOT to be confusd with the "gift of tongues" Paul speaks of purposed for the edification of the church when accompanied by interpretation..

Orm

 2006/5/26 14:12





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