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linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

I have been reading Ever Increasing Faith by Wigglesworth. This was in the year 1905 during a revival in Sunderland. He heard people speaking in tongues and he sought and sought tongues but people kept telling him it was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that he needed. After many days and much seeking finally the vicar's wife layed hands on him and he received the Baptism. He describes it as a wonderful experience. He said that everything he had up to that point 'was in the nature of an anointing bringing him in line with God in preparation', but after the 'biblical baptism' he 'had the backing of the Scriptures'. He found out that this was a one-time experience. He could not speak in tongues after that. (The Lord much later on gave him the Gift of Tongues - 1 Cor 12)
John the Baptist said 'He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire' (Matt 3:11). There are three instances in Acts where the people were baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues - Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6. Now, I have received the gift of tongues (1 Cor 12) but I do not ever remember being baptized by the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues as is described by Wigglesworth and in the above scriptures in Acts. I will not lengthen this with details of my conversion and walk with the Lord to prove that I am saved; I would be interested to hear though from anyone who has received this scriptural evidence of being baptized in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Linda


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Linda

 2006/5/8 10:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

Hi Linda,

There are some great threads on this topic you may want to review by doing a search.

God Bless,

Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/8 10:58Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spriit

Thank you Robert, I have found one or two threads.

Linda


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Linda

 2006/5/8 11:16Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Thank you Robert, I have found one or two threads.



Feel free to enter in to any of the discussions or if you have some other points to share you certainly can do that on this thread. :-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/8 11:33Profile









 Re: Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

There are also instances in Acts where people received the Holy Spirit and there is no mention of tongues.

We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. You can not be saved without having the Holy Spirit. Tongues is NOT the Biblical evidence of being filled w/the Holy Spirit. The Biblical evidence is the FRUITS of the Spirit, not the gifts. That was Pauls who point when he wrote to the Corinthians.

Krispy

 2006/5/8 13:15
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Hi Krisp,

That is always what scared me about going to some of these pentocostal churches.

In fact, a friend of mine, who goes to a church of God, tells me he will never sit in at a church where the pastor doesnt have the gift of tongues.

I think this is crazy. I dont like to compare, but I now go to Calvary chapel, where the word is preached. I used to go to a church of god, where nothing but prosperity was preached. And to add insult to injury, everyone always fell over at the end of the services. Only to be outside smoking cigaretts and using foul language.

I am not saying all church of god's are like this, but this clearly shows how we dont need to hear this mumbo jumbo coming from the charismatic circles.


I also dont get how people can interpret tongues, when all they say is blah shimei shemei shimei blah, It doesnt make any sense. They use the same sounds and interpret the words in english different. Weird....I know!!!

I feel some of these charismatic churches need to reread 1 Corinthians carefully.

God bless all


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/8 13:33Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Quote:
We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved.



Yes. And after this have you received power from on high? To do as Jesus did? Stever has experienced it, after he was saved. Read the thread on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Linda


_________________
Linda

 2006/5/8 13:59Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi boomat,

Quote:
I used to go to a church of god, where nothing but prosperity was preached. And to add insult to injury, everyone always fell over at the end of the services. Only to be outside smoking cigaretts and using foul language.

I am not saying all church of god's are like this, but this clearly shows how we dont need to hear this mumbo jumbo coming from the charismatic circles.



I would encourage you not to allow the excesses of certain groups discourage you from seeking the Lord for all that He has for us. These things can stigmatize a good thing if we let them.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/8 15:08Profile









 Re: Salvation versus Baptism of the Holy Ghost

Stever posts:

This is excellent teaching about the difference between salvation, and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, the Baptism of Fire that empowers believers to witness and go about his business with boldness.

xxxxxxxx

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit versus Salvation
I. Question #1: Is every Christian, those who are "born-again", also baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is, is the baptism in the Holy Spirit automatically received with Salvation?

A. Read John 20:22
" 22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

The context of this passage is the time between the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus. Here Jesus breathes on His apostles, they RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (that is, they are "born-again", i.e. "saved"). However, the first time that the baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs is on Pentecost, which occurred after the ascension.

B. Read Luke 24:49
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed (endued) with POWER from on high."

During this same period between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the ascension Jesus promises the apostles the baptism in the Holy Spirit and orders them to wait for it in the city of Jerusalem.

C. Read Acts 1:5
"for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with [in] the Holy Spirit not many many days from now."

Again the same promise and order not to leave the city of Jerusalem to the apostles by Jesus, before He was taken up into heaven.

D. Read Acts 2:4
"And they were ALL filled with the HOLY GHOST and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is the point where the apostles received the baptism IN the Holy Spirit. However as we have seen there existed a period of time between where they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were BAPTIZED IN the Holy Spirit. These were separate acts and each have a different reason. Salvation comes with receiving the Holy Spirit, that is we are saved from the penalty of sin. We become sons of God, that is we receive the authority to act as the sons of God. With the baptism in the Holy Spirit we receive the power to act as the sons of God (incidentally, there is a third level where we receive the direction to act as a son of God).

II. Question #2: Ok, I can see that the apostles were first saved and THEN baptized in the Holy Spirit later, but what about ordinary people like me?

A. Read Acts 8:5
"And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming CHRIST to them."
B. Read Acts 8:8
"And there was much JOY in that city."
C. Read Acts 8:12
"But when they BELIEVED Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike."

They were preaching the message of Jesus and His offer of Salvation. They also accepted the message and signs which Philip brought, thus they were "born-again".

D. This is just what Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who has BELIEF and has been BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

At this point the people of Samaria are born-again, but nothing has been said, one way or the other, about BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

E. Read Acts 8:14 through 17
"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they SENT them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.
For He (THE HOLY GHOST) had not yet FALLEN UPON ANY of them; they had simply been baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.Then they began laying their hands on them , and they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit."

Thus, we see that the people of Samaria first were born-again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit later; this is just what we saw with the apostles themselves.

III. Question #3: Are there other examples of people first being born-again,
A Read Acts 19:1 through 6
"And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found some disciples,and he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED ?' And they said to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit'.And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized? And they said, 'Into John's baptism',And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in Him who was coming after Him, that is Jesus.'And when they heard this, they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus.
And when [b]Paul LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM[/b], [b]the HOLY SPIRIT came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and they were prophesying[/b].
The people had believed the message preached by John about Jesus, they were believers, THEY WERE "SAVED" OR "BORN AGAIN". However they were never taught to be water baptized as the completion of righteousness (enter the death and resurrection as a symbolic act)-they were baptized only for repentence. Also, they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. When Paul told them of these things, first they were water baptized in the NAME of Jesus and second he LAID HANDS on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, these examples here explain my personal understanding of what really happens to the believer. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is an entirely separate event that takes place by the LAYING ON OF HANDS. Each of us can say that one do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth, be saved, but NOT BE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IV. Question #4: Does this mean that some large period of time must pass between the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

A. Read Acts 10:44 through 48
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word (Gospel).
And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'
And he ordered them to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.

These people were Gentiles who were not raised knowing God, they were God fearing people, they were good people. They asked Peter to come deliver the message of salvation because God told them to do so in a vision. These people were not Christians, that is, they were not "saved" or "born-again". Peter delivered the salvation message as stated in verses 34 to 43, in verse 43 he specifically defined the requirement to be "saved", "Of Him all prophets bear witness that through HIS NAME everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins". After this they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. Here the group is preached to, they believed and thus were "born-again". Immediately after the new birth they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, even before the water baptism. This is the only case in the New Testament where this is seen, the normal case is first salvation, then later the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

V. Question #5: Is there a Scripture which lists these sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Ephesian 1:13
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

VI. Question #6: How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit?
A. Read Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes, we must as children of God request the baptism from our heart.

xxxxxxxxxxx

I pray this has been a blessing to all.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/9 1:16









 Re:

Stever, I dont deny what that there is a point when believers seem to become empowered from on high. Some call it Baptism of the Holy Spirit, others call it The Second Blessing, still others call it Sanctification. However, I strongly disagree that a case can be made from scripture that the initial sign is tongues, and that if one has not spoken in tongues then they have not received the Baptism. Scripture does show 3 cases where that happened, but it did not happen in ever case.

No one here would question whether Billy Graham has been empowered from above, and yet he has never spoken in tongues. I dont agree with everything Billy Graham has done, especially concerning his fellowship with the wicked Roman Catholic Church, but thats beside the point.

John Wesley did not speak in tongues. Charles Finney did not speak in tongues. Are we to believe that these men did not move in the power of the Holy Spirit? No, I think not. As far as I can tell most of the men who were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church as the Reformation was beginning to take shape never spoke in tongues.

Matthew Henry, who wrote the greatest and most insightful Bible commentary in history never spoke in tongues.

Where is the evidence that tongues is the sign of the Baptism? There isnt any... unless you follow jokers like Copeland, Hagin, Hinn and Marilyn Hickey. And these hucksters cant hold a candle next to the men of God I mentioned previously.

Tongues [i]can[/i] be a sign of the Baptism... but scripture shows and teaches that the real signs of being Baptised in the Spirit are the following:

[b]love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, & temperance[/b] (temperance... otherwise known as self control)

Krispy

 2006/5/9 6:24





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