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aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Here it is, John

Here it is John,

Chapter 5 section is helpful to some degree, but is more specifically about how God disciplines us, but this below is what I wanted to actually share with you, and others reading here.

Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Scripture quotes:

[1] PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[2] 2TI 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. JER 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

[3] HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. HEB 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. JOH 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. HEB 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[4] JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 1JO 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[5] JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

[6] JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 2TH 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1JO 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[7] MAT 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

[8] PSA 51 (the title) To the chief muscian, A psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

[9] ISA 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. 9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. 2SA 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.

[10] EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[11] PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

[12] ISA 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. MAR 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened. 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

[13] PSA 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

[14] 2SA 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

[15] PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 1CO 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In Christ,
Aeryck

ps. I found a bible for my avatar...but not beard...


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Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/14 13:08Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

If salvation were of myself, then I could and most assuredly would loose it. When God gives birth to a new believer, He is not an abortionist. Once saved by God, always saved by God. Once saved by man, salvation lost by man.

How can The Salvation of God be Lost? If it can be lost then the Cross was just a work of futility on the Part of God and His Christ.



Matt 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


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Jimmy H

 2006/6/14 15:09Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not £hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’

31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Salvation is the free gift that will cost you everything. If you decide that after a while, being a disciple is just not worth it, then you have forfeited your salvation and will be shown as a fool.


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Jimmy H

 2006/6/14 15:15Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Matt 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he said* to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20 The young man said* to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Interesting when approached and asked about what one must do to be saved, Jesus didn't give this rich young man some sort of "sola fide" formulated response. Though no doubt, Jesus like the apostles taught justification by faith alone. This may mess with your doctrine pretty good, but here Jesus is preaching justification by faith alone, and this justifying faith demanded a complete surrendor to God.


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Jimmy H

 2006/6/14 15:22Profile
kobilove
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Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 21


 Re:

I think the only way we can loose our salvation is to denounce Jesus.Once we accept Jesus as our lord and personal saviour, we are santified by his blood. It is therefore not dependent on what we do, only by grace.
But the presence of grace does not mean the absence of the Law. God still expects us to live ourlives to please him, he want us to work towards our salvation with fear and trembling obeying everyone of his laws. He makes up for what we cannot do because of our frailties.

 2006/6/14 20:23Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: Eternal debate

~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~

This two headed monster, 'He loves me, he loves me not ' which was I believe was started by a fella named Arminius centuries ago, has never really been stamped out; for it's fires are allowed to burn based on erroneous interpretation of Scripture. (Heresy)

As long as believers continue to argue for the T.U.L.I.P or the D.A.I.S.Y., this ancient argument is destined to be with us for many more centuries.

So unless we agree to disagree, the argument will remain and just keep burning and burning and ultimately achieve absolutely nothing in the end, but that it went on and on and on and on ... burning and burning and burning with no conclusion...other than it went on burning and burning and burning...

I call it, The Eternal Debate sort of like the Creation vs Evolution debate....

Perhaps it would be better to decide on ways to end the debate. Perhaps the Administration, could lock it and explain why.

Amen ?
:-P


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Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/15 5:23Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

"My Sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give to them eternal Life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My Hand. My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are One. (John 10:27-30)

Romans 8:31-34: What then shall we say to these things. If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies, Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and rather who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also interceeds for us. Who shall separate us from the Love of Christ...?

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/15 11:43Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This two headed monster, 'He loves me, he loves me not ' which was I believe was started by a fella named Arminius centuries ago, has never really been stamped out; for it's fires are allowed to burn based on erroneous interpretation of Scripture. (Heresy)



Jacob Arminius was not nearly as "Arminian" as many who followed after him.

Arminius did not believe one could lose ones salvation. His statements argued that the verses which teach ones eternal security were very clear. However He argued that the Calvinist's treatment of those scriptures which seemed to teach one could lose one's salvation were unsatisfactory.

In other words He believed that salvation was secured to the beleiver, but did not find satisfactory explination of the passages which seem to teach otherwise to be sufficent.

This was his position and others took it and ran with it to great extreams.

I believe Arminius was closer to the truth than both his followers and the Calvinist. Both views are deficient not recognizing in scripture the distinctions between Eternal Life, the eternal age and the age of the Kingdom which is a reward to faithful, perservering, and overcomming Christians.

D. M. Panton used the illustration from astronomy saying that for years astronomers believed Uranus to be the last planet in the Solar system. However it did not behave properly according to the laws of physics. Then finally when Neptune was discovered, the behaviour of Uranus was explained.

When the distinctions of the Kingdom and the Eternal Life and Eternal Age were brought to light in the scripture in subsequent generations, then all the related scriptures behave properly.

When it is seen that the Apostles (and the Lord Jesus) made this distinction, then it is clear in such passages as "They who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God" and can be reconciled with such things as Pauls assertion in the same epistle conserning the Adultrous brother, "That his spirit might be saved in that day".. etc.

Eternal Life which is the free gift of God in Christ Jesus is seen in distinction from the reward of the Kingdom which only those who "suffer with Him that they might rein with Him", Those who treat their brothers fairly, those who are mature having sufficient oil in their lamps, etc, will enjoy.

When these things are seen clearly, then our fear is abated and we are encouraged to pursue the Lord with all our heart not to avoid eternal judgement and condemnation, but to obtain the prize. Not eternal salvation, but the prize of the Kingdom.

Romans 8:16,17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are childern of God and if Children, then heirs. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him in order that we might also reign with Him."

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/15 11:47Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Re: As I said, "......."

Well done grafted_branch, you just added another x quantity to the Eternal Debate. Well, maybe one day we will realize who it is that is in our midst.



In Him,
Aeryck


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Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/15 15:14Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
So unless we agree to disagree, the argument will remain and just keep burning and burning and ultimately achieve absolutely nothing in the end, but that it went on and on and on and on ...



Seems like the assumption is that there is no resolution and that the only way is to agree to disagree.

I propose a third way. That is the way of the Spirit, the way of life and the way of Light.

That is if we are willing to let go of our precious held preconcieved opinions and open to the Lord and seek His Light in the scriptures, the One Spirit of the One Lord in the One Body of Christ will lead us into the one Faith of the One gospel.

Agreeing to disagree is not God's way, but rather forbearing and recieving one another even if all do not see the same light we see or differ. But our goal is not just mutual tolerance, but that we all be brought into the Oneness of the faith and of the Full knowlege of the Son of God unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

This is accomplished primarily by prayer and not by arguments and debates. It is the Spirit who unites, the Spirit who unveils, the Spirit who reveals truth and the Spirit who is our inward teacher.

Our prayer should be, "Lord make us one, bring us into the one accord, enlighten us all and cause us all to drop our concepts. Lord, perfect us into One, open our eyes, manifest from within us the Oneness of the Spirit and the uniting bond of peace and grow us up in all things into Yourself as the Head."

God's goal is not people shaking hands over fences, nor agreeing to disagree, but His goal is the genuine oneness, the one accord, being one mind, with one faith pursuing the One Lord out of a pure heart.

I suggest that the one hinderence to the One accord and the One mind and one soul is our Self. Our failure to take the cross, in denying ourselves, in denying our soulish opinions and pride. If we would take the cross to our soul life, we would find the resurrection Life of Christ within us enlightening us, and brining us into the One Accord. Not by agreeing to disagree, but by genuinly brining us to one mind to see the one truth by the One Spirit.

Graftedbranch

 2006/6/16 16:20Profile





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