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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can Salvation be lost?

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boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, I can read all you definitions of die here, but you can't add to the word and the word say's you will die show me were it say's you will did and go to hell, that exact scripture




Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.


Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Please read the book of Revelation. Chapter 2 and 3.

How would the prodical son gotten his robe and his ring on his finger, had he not made a decision to leave the swine and come back to the father?

Do think Ananias and Sapphria went to heaven?

I think not.


It all comes down to a decision.
Follow christ or not



By the way, the definition of Die is taken from www.blueletterbible.org, that is the meaning in greek.


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/5 16:45Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

I think this is the best explanation I have ever found and I agree with this 100%

Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn’t dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.

The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).

There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4_6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27_28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21_23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38_39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.

It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one’s salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish.

If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB).

I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.

Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.

Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God’s grace to be saved.

Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can’t occur because of anything you do.


Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.


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Bill

 2006/5/5 17:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Very, Very Good Mr.Billpro:

Me tooooooo. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

Even though we have been anointed by Him in us, and no man can give this anointing, so the anointing must be Christ in you. If He lives in us and by His anointing He is there. How can a human being a little lower that the angles with no power when it comes to spiritual things even think he could reject the Holy One that is truth and not a liar, how could you send Him away, the biggie is why would you want to send Him away. This kind of thinking is illogical and just plain stupid. Maybe Satan thinks we are that stupid but I don't think so, especially since Christ in us has already defeated him and he has no power over us. All he can do is lie, and with the Truth in us, Christ makes him look stupid.


I too know by the The Christ in me that I will never loose my salvation. Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is no law that says I can loose my salvation which is in Christ and not myself. Even if there were I could not break it, for I am dead to it.

This I say, I can be righteous if by the Law I can get rid of Jesus Christ and not have salvation. This is what must be done to loose ones salvation. I don't think so. The only way this could be done is to never have had it in the first place.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/5/5 20:14Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Amen Mr. Pro,

God Bless and I look forward to seeing you all in heaven.


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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/5 22:35Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: Is a person living is sin truly saved?

Hi KingJimmy...

Quote:
The issue of once saved always saved essentially boils down to this: can you continue on in unrepentant sin once you are saved, and still be saved?

I believe many people have a false sense of what salvation is. Many of it simply think of it as being delivered from the fate of hell and given the fate of going to heaven. But if you think of salvation primarily in these terms, you are mistaken.

What did Jesus come to do? To save us from hell? NO! When Joseph was told about Mary's conception through the Holy Spirit, the angel of the Lord told him, "She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

If you closely study the Scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept, you will find that salvation in the Scriptures is primarily thought of in terms of salvation... not from hell... but from SIN. But to talk to many proponents of once saved always saved, this concept of salvation is seldom ever mentioned, and seldom ever understood.

I agree. I really believe that people often have a misconception of the concept of salvation. Many believe that they are eternally secure if they simply place their faith in Christ at some time in their life. But the Parable of the Sower, along with many New Testament warnings about being led astray or falling away, demonstrate that it is possible for someone that has consciously placed their faith in Christ (or believed in Him) to turn away from Him.

To me, we must search for an answer to this question: [i]Is a person currently living in sin truly saved?[/i]

We will always hear someone say, "How can you turn away from Christ once you've known Him?" But from personal experience, I can vouch that the enemy is constantly attacking believers with temptations. How many believers have you known that have walked with God, only to "fall away" on account of a sin that they could not or would not forsake? God has given us a free will -- allowing us to decide whether or not we will trade our relationship with Christ for the temporary pleasures of sin for a season.

To live in continual sin all the while openly proclaiming the concept of [i]eternal security[/i] seems rather offensive to the precious blood of Christ that was shed to save us from our sins. In fact, it seems to cheapen the Blood of Christ and seemingly insults the Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:26-31).

And of course, we should never walk away from the Lord. Is it possible to walk away from Him? Remember the words of 2 John 1:8-11...
Quote:
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 [b]Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [/b]
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I guess the key is to abide in Christ. It doesn't mean that you will [i]completely perfect[/i] here in this world, but it means that your heart will always be His, falling upon Him when we fail. I suppose that is the key of "abiding in the vine."

On a side note, KingJimmy's words remind me that Leonard Ravenhill has a wonderful message called "[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=1]A Pure Heart[/url]" ([url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=615]part 1[/url] and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=616]part 2[/url]). It is one of my favorite messages from Brother Ravenhill. There is also a message called "[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3857]The Shocking Sin of a Perfect Heart[/url]" by David Wilkerson that sort of covers this topic quite well.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/5/6 0:00Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

SI members,

I believe you can lose your salvation:

"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO REPENTANCE, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:6

The people mentioned in that verse are not mere pretenders but actual partakers, ie.(shared in the Holy Spirit).

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and perform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matthew 7:15

They want to be teachers of the law, but do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. 1 Timothy 1:7

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18:6

Nothing can seperate us from the love of God when we abide in Him. But if we don't......

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2006/5/6 7:40Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

murdog wrote:
SI members,
I believe you can lose your salvation:Murray



That's OK Murry we won't hold that against you even if we don't. And you like everyone else you have a right to your opinion. :-)

So I personally will just stand on this thought below:

Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.


_________________
Bill

 2006/5/6 8:26Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

John Wesley once said, "We know no gospel without salvation from sin." I must say 1000 times, amen. Frankly, if you are preaching a gospel of salvation from hell without salvation from sin, you are preaching a FALSE gospel.

Keith Daniel once addressed this issue well, and said of faith, "you are not saved by works, but you are not saved unless your faith WORKS."

Sadly, once saved always saved commonly teaches that discipleship is an entirely optional way of life, when Christ taught it as the only way to life. The Scriptures know nothing of salvation outside of discipleship. Is this not what Christ said when he said "Whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it?"


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/5/6 9:23Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

John Wesley,Keith Daniel,Spurgeon, Wilkerson,Tozer,Ravenhill,Moody etc. Bless there hearts, but I always go by what Jesus Christ said can go wrong there. :-)


_________________
Bill

 2006/5/6 9:43Profile
anointed4jc
Member



Joined: 2006/5/6
Posts: 1


 Re: Can Salvation be lost?

I'm new here but felt the need to jump in real quick------ some scriptures that must apply (i must say that I strongly supported that salvation could be lost---because I thought that would promote holiness and 'security' would produce sinfulness)

Alright the parable of the sower
4 hearts the second example on shallow ground is the "proffessing" Christian who looks genuine but doesn't last (how long? it doesn't say) but the real Christian will bear fruit and endure to the end.
People have quoted I John 2 but have seem to left out some verses that apply
I John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Consider what this means, the proffessor again didn't endure but it seems that it sure "looked" like they were with them.

Romans 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God justifies and God sanctifies, without justification there is no sanctification and without justification there is no sanctification.

Willful, habitual, sin without repentance is the mark of the hypocrite, but we all whether in deed or thought sin willfully but we are convicted, but we are broken and thus we seek God

COnsider also that what we see are and what God sees are often treated different in the word of God. Like James' works and faith doesn't contradict Paul's faith and grace. God's view: faith Our view: works God knows already those whom are His even if believers are fooled but sometimes we can see that someone is not genuine because their is no fruit

Gotta go God bless who holds you, who secures you?

 2006/5/6 11:35Profile





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