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DomSpencer
Member



Joined: 2006/4/5
Posts: 24
Hull, East Yorkshire, England

 Re:

Logic said:

Quote:
You can loose your salvation, but not like you loose your car keys.



First of all, I love that statement!

However:

Quote:
Once you loose it, your finished!



I'm not sure about!

I don't pretend to be a sholar of any description, or a paid-up member of either side of this debate, but I am puzzled by this statement. Obviously representatives from both sides of this issue have Scripture from which they derive their opinions (hopefully), and I can see how Heb. 6 v. 4-6 could lead to the second statement I have quoted.

Logic - do you mean by this statement that you can lose your salvation, and then desire to regain a relationship with God by faith in Jesus, but be unable to do so?

If so, then I cannot see how that can be so, when the Bible continues to say whoever believes, trusts and lives for Jesus is saved.

If you mean someone can come to the place where they are no longer able to repent (as per Heb. 6 v. 6 that you quoted), I can agree; but if you mean that someone can come to a point where Jesus will turn them away because of sins they have committed, and are sincerely repentant of, I cannot. I don't see how He can reject somebody who sincerely comes to Him in faith & repentance, when the invitation is to all, to come to Him.

Blessings,

Dom


_________________
Dominic Spencer

 2006/5/5 8:38Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.


Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.


Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.


Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.


Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Jhn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.


Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.






Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.


Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.


Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
8-)


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/5 8:54Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hello...

[i]Can salvation be lost? [/i]
That question has been debated for years (including several lively debates on SermonIndex).

But here is another question to consider:
Suppose a person truly comes to Christ, truly has a salvation experience, truly and humbly seeks the Lord daily, and even ministers in His Name. What happens if such a person falls back into the things of this world? Suppose they fall into a sinful lifestyle (including sexual sins, lust, hatred, lying, etc...), a lazy lifestyle (neglect of Christ, the Word, prayer, their family, etc...), a heretical pattern of beliefs (such as "Christian" mysticism), and/or eventually, they simply discontinue their fellowship with Christ. [i]If that person dies in such sin, will that person be counted among the righteous[/i]?

If a person that once came to Christ and walked with him, turns back to their former life (or even a new lifestyle of sin), and then dies in such sin, will that person be considered a sheep or a goat? What if a once-humble pastor is caught in an addiction to gross lust and pornography for years, and he dies in this sin, does he go to be with Jesus?

Any thoughts?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/5/5 12:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

DomSpencer wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Once you loose it, your finished!



I'm not sure about!

I don't pretend to be a sholar of any description, or a paid-up member of either side of this debate, but I am puzzled by this statement. Obviously representatives from both sides of this issue have Scripture from which they derive their opinions (hopefully), and I can see how Heb. 6 v. 4-6 could lead to the second statement I have quoted.

Logic - do you mean by this statement that you can lose your salvation, and then desire to regain a relationship with God by faith in Jesus, but be unable to do so?

If so, then I cannot see how that can be so, when the Bible continues to say whoever believes, trusts and lives for Jesus is saved.

If you mean someone can come to the place where they are no longer able to repent (as per Heb. 6 v. 6 that you quoted), I can agree; but if you mean that someone can come to a point where Jesus will turn them away because of sins they have committed, and are sincerely repentant of, I cannot. I don't see how He can reject somebody who sincerely comes to Him in faith & repentance, when the invitation is to all, to come to Him.

Blessings,

Dom

The famous skeptic,
Voltaire died a terrible death. His nurse said: "For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness."

But he never found it.

Sir Thomas Scott,
Once president of the English Lower House said: "Up until this time, I thought that there was no God neither Hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am delivered to perdition by the righteous judgment of the Almighty."

He proclaimed the knowlege of GOD but couldn't find the faith to repent.

The description of the unpardonable sin is a sin so grievous that when committed it cannot be repented of, cannot be forgiven and the perpetrator cannot be cleansed of all unrighteousness as 1John 1:9 promises.

This sin leads to eternal condemnation – hell. This is a couple of testimonies.

The gut-wrenching truth of these desperate souls was their complete knowledge of their sin, the fact that they had said “No” to the Holy Spirit’s call to salvation and subsequently had their hearts hardened to the point where there was no turning back. No chance to make retribution. They were damned and they knew it and they were terrified.

One might ask if they knew of this, why couln't they just trust that God would forgive then since the Bible says HE would?

Read the words of a young man in an account who, after being told he was dying responding to his doctor’s beseeching that he could come to salvation in this eleventh hour:

"My eleventh hour," he rejoined, "was when I had that call of the Spirit. I have had none since and never again shall not have. I am given over to be lost. Oh! I have missed it! I have sold my soul for nothing -- a feather -- a straw -- undone forever!"

This was said with such indescribable despondency, that nothing was said in reply. After lying a few moments, he raised his head, and looking all around the room as if for some desired object, he buried his face in the pillow, and again exclaimed in agony and horror, "Oh! I have missed it at last!" and died.

Notice this similar account and the realization of a hardened heart:

Some one else gives the following account of what he witnessed. He says:
"I went to see William Pope, and as soon as he saw me he exclaimed, 'You are come to see one who is damned forever!'

I answered, 'I hope not; Christ can save the chief of sinners.'

He replied, 'I have denied Him, I have denied Him; therefore hath He cast me off forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone -- gone, never more to return!'

I entreated him not to be too hasty, and to pray.

He answered, 'I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened, I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God,'
and then cried out,
'Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within reel Oh, eternity.' eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion, and that justly!'

We read these accounts and we think: Surely one can be saved if one knows how lost he is. If one knows the way to salvation then why not choose it?

But the choice was made when the Holy Spirit called, presented the Truth, and the individual refused. A hardened heart that could no longer be circumcised, could no longer be redeemed, and was condemned to outer darkness.

 2006/5/5 12:40Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

NO!!!

I dont believe that

I feel if they committ such sins, they obviously arent saved, but at the same time, I dont feel we can tell someones family we know that since they killed themselves, that they werent saved. SO, in all reality, I guess I'm not too sure on this issue.

But read those scriptures I posted earlier in galations, and 1 corinth, as well as john and Romans.

what does everyone else think on this issue?

I guess I'm still open to the scriptures on this. does anyone have any references?


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/5 12:49Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Someone wrote:

Quote:
I agree 100%.You gave scriptual backup which is what I needed. I believe there are times of backsliding,but as you said,"Paul here did not say “you might be saved if you meet certain conditions in the future.” He said “will be saved.” "



Romans 8:

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

This is a conditional statement. What choice does Paul present to the brethren?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/5/5 15:15Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3234
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.



Yes, it does say you will die but it sure don't say when you do your going to Hell, once saved always saved are Jesus at the cross was all in vain.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/5/5 15:54Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

1) to die

a) of the natural death of man

b) of the violent death of man or animals

c) to perish by means of something

d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted

e) of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell




_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/5/5 16:15Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3234
Texas

 Re:

Yes, I can read all you definitions of die here, but you can't add to the word and the word say's you will die show me were it say's you will did and go to hell, that exact scripture, it's bad enough that "none" of really know scriptures but God, if we did there would be no scripture fighting here "that's what I call it" but it's really bad when we start altering them.Bottom line we all have our own beliefs but "I personally cannot loose my salvation" and that is what I am going with, heck if we fought scriptures enough it might get to the point there is no salvation. :-?


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/5/5 16:29Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

The issue of once saved always saved essentially boils down to this: can you continue on in unrepentant sin once you are saved, and still be saved?

I believe many people have a false sense of what salvation is. Many of it simply think of it as being delivered from the fate of hell and given the fate of going to heaven. But if you think of salvation primarily in these terms, you are mistaken.

What did Jesus come to do? To save us from hell? NO! When Joseph was told about Mary's conception through the Holy Spirit, the angel of the Lord told him, "She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

If you closely study the Scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept, you will find that salvation in the Scriptures is primarily thought of in terms of salvation... not from hell... but from SIN. But to talk to many proponents of once saved always saved, this concept of salvation is seldom ever mentioned, and seldom ever understood.

Forgiveness and righteousness are not simply judicial terms that declare those guilty as being now not guilty. There is that aspect of forgiveness. But when God declares somebody not guilty, they actually become what God says they are. As Isaiah said, God's word will not return void, it will accomplish what it sets out to do. So when God declares you "righteous," you actually are what God declares you to be... the very righteousness of Christ.

Forgiveness actually makes a difference. If you were a billion dollars in debt to somebody, and were slaving away working 80 hours a week in order to pay that debt, and suddenly you were forgiven of that debt, would you continue to work like a dog? Of course not. So it is with us, who are in debt to God because of our sin. But in Christ, God has forgiven us our debt. So, how can you and I ever remain the same?

(just some thoughts)


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Jimmy H

 2006/5/5 16:33Profile





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