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Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 226
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 The "Five Fold Ministry"?

Shalom saints,
God bless you one and all. As you may have already recognized, church, especially in the USA has fallen way short of expectations and potential in the last century. Why is that? Well there are a wide variety of reasons.

One deficiancy I want to focus in on is the deficiancy in our churches of Evangelists, Prophets, and Apostles. Where are they? Why is it that pastors rule thier kingdoms instead of re-presenting God's kingdom? Now and then you run across Teachers, but where are the rest?

Churches, when ran like commercial corporations, have a "CEO", Chief Executive Officer, a pastor. This is the "man at the top". Jesus said if we wanted to be at the top of His kingdom, we had to be a servant for the rest of the Body. From this ultra simplistic statement, we realize that it is infinitely more complex than stated, but let's keep it simple for illustration sake. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers are the foundational stones that are set in place after the cornerstone. They support the rest of the body. They are not at some lofty position, they labor to serve all the rest.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:11 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

These men are not elected by popular vote, they are given to us by
God. If God has given them to us, where are they? Why are not all five more prominent among our church bodies? What have we done with these "gifts"???????

12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),

God's intention was to give all five to the church for the perfecting and fully equipping of the saints, that they should do the work of the ministry. Now this is quite clear. (Before you think about whether are not the saints are doing the work of the ministry, think about what ministry really is. For a clue, please pause here and read Isaiah 58 and Matthew 25:31-46). So ask yourself again, who is really doing the ministry in your church. Is it just one man and everyone else helps him with his ministry, or are the saints really doing the work of the ministry? Who is building up Christ's Body in your local body?

13 [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

His purpose is to have a Body that is one, fully functional, not just one or two parts. He wants a church that fully comprehends Who Jesus Christ really is. Do all the members of your local body fully comprehend Who Jesus is? To answer that question, are they living their lives in such a way that the standard they hold too and live out in their everyday lives is Jesus Christ? Can others see Jesus Christ readily in the lives of the saints? If not, then we have not fully comprehended Who Jesus is. If we did, we would yeild our vessels completely to Him and walk in obedience. If all of this is so, and I know in most cases it is, then we still need Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists functioning in our churches. Amen? Where are they?

14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.

Have you seen the saints tossed around to and fro? Have you seen them running after teaching and false doctrines of unscrupulous men? I sure have. Then we must still need the Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists. But where are they? Has God failed to give them? If God has given them, have they been rocognized and received? If not, why not? What is our loss because of it?

Yes, I know that there are as many false prophets in the world, pehaps more, than there are real ones. Same thing for Apostles and Evangelists. Does this mean that at the mention of such a nomenclature, that we heave and run? Do you do that when "pastor" is mentioned? Let's be honest, if most pastors were following the Lord, they would welcome real Apostles and Prophets, Evangelist too. My Lord, it would sure make their job eaiser. But if their job is only a job, and their financial income relies on it, then they must keep themselves at the top of the pile and thier pockets at the bottom of the money chute that flows so freely in corporation church.

I'd like to share an object lesson with you to help you better understand. The object is found on your arm, that is if you have one or two of them. The object is your hand, considering that it has four fingers and a thumb. If yours does not, look on with someone who has all of them. Thank you.

The object lesson for this illustration is your hand. As you look at it, I hope it has 4 fingers and a thumb. I Ephesians 4, Paul tells us that God gave to the church Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Teachers, and Pastors for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry. This is commonly called the five fold ministry. This description is not exactly accurate, but let's not get distracted there right now.

As you look at your hand, the index finger represents the prophet because he points the way. The middle finger represents the evangelist, because he goes the longest distance. The ring finger represents the pastor, because that finger is associated with love, covering, and the heart. The small finger represents the teacher. Now, lets work our way back to where we started. The teacher works really well along side the pastor, but not the evangelist or the prophet. The teacher's make up and gifts are designed this way so that the the Teacher most benefits the Pastor and the congregation that the Pastor watches over. The pastor is located between the teacher and the evangelist. These are the two he works best with. One wins souls, the other trains them. The pastor oversees the process. A shepherd leads his sheep.

The evangelist is between the prophet and the pastor. Someone has to take in the new babes and feed them and shepherd them. The pastor and teacher are well equipped for this. The prophet provides insight for the evangelist and helps keep things pointed in the right direction. They hear from God and reveal His heart and purpose for the hour, not just the future.

Now the thumb represents the apostle. The apostle works best with the prophet, but it is the only member on the hand that can touch all the other fingers quite easily. The apostle helps keep a tight grip on the church and assits all ther other leaders in the training process. All the others depend on the apostle to hold things together. The Apostle is also capable of operating and working with all the others on a close and personal basis, and even filling in if needed for a short time. The Apostle is gifted in like ministry with all the other four. They are prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, and capable teachers. The Apostle is responsible for unity among the local body, and local bodies. He presides over sound doctrine, and helps all the other four keep their grip on truth and love. He appoints leadership that is called of God, not elected because they are popular. Jesus was not popular, especially when it came to the religious crowd.

If your hand has only a ring finger on it, it is very limited in what it can accomplish, even though your ring finger may be a very hard worker.

The hand needs all the fingers and it's thumb to be effective in it's work. The church needs all it's faculties, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers if it is going to be effective. I do believe that this lack in our churches over the past 100 years and even longer, is the one of the biggest contributing factors to the ineffectiveness of the church.

What are we going to do about it? Would you pray about that?

Immersed in Him,

Onesimus for God


_________________
Lahry Sibley

 2006/4/30 11:18Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: The "Five Fold Ministry"?

Hi One,

If you want to find a good message on apostolic mechanics find a a message by Art Katz called What is Apostolic. Very profound truth. Also by him is a message called "the antioch church" I think, also very good if you want to explore such things. He speaks as only Art can, but if you get past his 'noise' he is very good.

What stands out for me in what he says is that Apostolic/prophetic christianity has at its root relationship. By relationship I mean covenental, the need for each other being the focus instead of the need to be right.

Anyway happy meditations,


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2006/4/30 12:23Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: The "Five Fold Ministry"?

Bro. Onesimus,
I agree with you that all the ministry gifts should be in operation in the body of Christ.
I think most would agree that they are not. We could discuss many reasons for this, but it really falls upon man. We get in God’s way.
Lets illustrate it like this, You asked the question, “ Why is this?” in the beginning of your post. You, answer your own question, in another post. Oh America.
If I may quote you, Onesimus said,

“So this is our only pulpit that is always open. Not only that, it is available around the world. I thank God for SI and the internet. Had I not had it afforded to me all these years, I would have swollen up and burst no doubt. Why? Because pastors hate to see me coming. It's not that I have a critical spirit. It's the anointing that makes them shake in their boots. All that is dear to them is in jeapordy when a real man of God shows up. They immediatle try to find some flaw so they can character assasinate you. I've got news for them. Anyone can destroy my reputation, but I'm the only one who can destroy my character. And since God does not repent on His calling, I'm not about to lose or give up that either.”

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You see brother, it is not about us and it is really not about the gifts, but its about Him.
He is going to build His church in spite of man or the gates of hell.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Its really very simple brother, we need to get on our knees and pray and seek His face, and ask Him to allow us to see this very Glorious, and Wonderful work that only He can
Perform.

All Glory to Him,

pastorfrin

 2006/4/30 16:21Profile
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: The "Five Fold Ministry"?


Hey folks:

Never mind the Evangelists, Prophets. and Apostles, where can a person find a church that still has JESUS?

Blessings Greg


_________________
Greg

 2006/4/30 19:06Profile









 Re: The Holy Ghost Ministry

Quote:

Smokey wrote:

Hey folks:

Never mind the Evangelists, Prophets. and Apostles, where can a person find a church that still has JESUS?

Blessings Greg



xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever adds to Smokey:

Where can we find a Church that is empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Forget the fingers, we need Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and everything else will fall into line.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/4/30 23:01
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re:

Hey, I like this post and will add my two cents worth. Pastor Frin, I had a question from your post. You said first it was man that get's in the way and then at then end say that it is God that will build it. I agree with both but how do we get 'em both together. Can God truly build His kingdom if we are getting in the way? And are we really getting in the way, maybe what is happening is the result of God building His kingdom. He notices a sparrow fall, does He not notice the apostasy and falseness of the church at large. Maybe it was Him that allowed these things to take place and where we think we are getting in the way we maybe actually fulfilling a piece of God's puzzle. Jesus said His kingdom was like a lump of dough and some leaven was placed in it and then the whole became leavened. Is this referring to corporate church, the apostate, the majority?
Just some rantings on my part

only His Kingdom come
Rich


_________________
RICH

 2006/5/1 8:15Profile
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 226
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

Where the Holy Spirit abounds, Jesus Christ will be the center piece of all. He said that when the Holy Spirit comes, "He will testify of me". Will He not use ordinary men to testify of Him?

"0"


_________________
Lahry Sibley

 2006/5/1 16:39Profile
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: The "Five Fold Ministry"?

Guys help me out;

Just what scripture says that there has to be Evangelists, Apostles, and Prophets active in the local church to make it viable? I can't seem to find it.

Blessings Greg


_________________
Greg

 2006/5/2 0:51Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
In the book of Acts there is more mentioned throughout the book , say for example, apostles.... the ministry of apostles from start to finish. But as for your question, there is no specific verse that says, The local body of Christ will have a reconized evangelist, apostle, prophet, pastor teacher....etc... But I believe the principles have been laid down to imply that God who is consistant will have that in place, maybe not 24/7 in the local assembly, but there should be these gifts in circulation among the churches for the building up--or mending of the (nets)(setting of the joints) the body of Christ. Also, there probably is some who aren't standing in a pulpit that may be filling a ministry appointed by the Lord, even though there are limitations imposed by the traditions of men, the grace of God is greater.


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/5/2 7:48Profile
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 226
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re: Dohzman

Dohzy,
I agree whole heartedly. Each local church should have a pastor and perhaps a teacher if possible. The pastor may be a teacher preacher or a preacher teacher. There may in time rise up among them an Evangelist, Prophet, or even and Apostle, called by God. But not every local assembly have all.

Where the problem comes in, is that the church is a corporation where power and authority become a lust for control and dominion. Not even Paul taught this, in fact quite the opposite.

2 Cor 1:24 Not that we have dominion (over you) and Lord it over your faith, but (rather that we work with you as) fellow laborers (to promote) your joy, for in (your) faith (in your strong and welcome conviciton or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through Whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God) you stand firm. Amplified Bible

"0"


_________________
Lahry Sibley

 2006/5/2 11:11Profile





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