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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Martin Luther ?

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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

Quote:
Notice what Luther said, "...I will become a monk." Luther was a monk for a while before he discovered justification by faith. This incident was prior to his conversion, and is what drove him into being a monk.



That this incident happened [b]before[/b] Martin Luther's conversion to Christ is also consistent with what I have heard taught about him. I think it is very plainly taught that Luther [b]was[/b] a monk, that [b]later[/b] came to faith in Christ.

If that is true, and this qoute was spoken at a time when Luther's soul was yet unillumined by the light of the Gospel, then we owe his memory in history the honor of not searching through the details of his unregenerate past for ammunition to assult his piety. I do not say this has been done here, however I think we ought to shun even the appearance of it nevertheless.

Whatever the case I think that caution is not un-called for concerning how we treat the memory of the men of history and the individual histories of men.

Peace be with you all.


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2006/5/15 16:35Profile









 Re: Martin Luther ?

Martin Luther is one of my favorites. He was a brilliant scholar and theologian but he did have his faults.

At the time of the reformation the whole world was under the thumb of the Roman Catholic church. The bible was hid from the common folk and there were very few that could even read it. Literacy was almost lost during the middle ages and the priests could barely read themselves. This explaines how they could get away with fleecing the flock. The people did'nt know any better. They had to rely on what the preists told them.(Thats why we need to study the Word for ourselves to keep the preachers and teachers in check.) Many tried to reform the church before Martin Luther came along but were murdered. Luther was saved while studying to be a preist. He had never read the New Testament until he went to college.

It was while on a pilgrimage that the word of God that had been planted in his heart began to grow and take root and suddenly while on his knees the words "justified by grace through faith" penetrated his heart and he was born again.

He was so aware of his sins that he would spend hours in confession, but was never satisfied that his sins were forgiven. He would ware out the preists at confession. It was'nt until he was born again that he felt redeemed. Although he was a hero of the faith he brought much of that twisted, rotten, Roman Catholic doctrine with him, and it was'nt long until the Lutheran church was infected by this disease. Now their nothing more than a catholic church with another name.

He also disliked the Jews and the anebaptists(now called the baptists). He loved his German beer and was known to guzzle down large quantities of the stuff. This was their main source of water during the middle ages. Beer was much cheaper than water so many people drank beer like water. He also had a pretty foul mouth and was known for his vulgar language.

Was he saved? I really think he was. I think the problem with christians during this time(unlike us today) was simply ignorance of the Word. They did'nt have the word of God in every home like we do today. Imagine not being able to find the bible anywhere.

He also made the first translation of the New Testament from Greek to German. Heres an interesting thought that I think all you scholars will like. He REJECTED the ALEXANDRIAN texts as being corrupted and would'nt use them for his translation. ;-) That'll burn some of you up. :-P

TABLE TALK is a book you should try out. It's a collection of conversations between Luther and many of the other reformers during this time and says alot about his doctrine. He was very sound in some areas but in others he went way off the deep end. Just ignorant of the Word.

You should also read some of his sermons. He was a great preacher and teacher.

He did alot of preaching against the catholic church and the pope.

J-bird

 2006/5/15 18:18
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: 95 Theses.

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Notice what Luther said, "...I will become a monk." Luther was a monk for a while before he discovered justification by faith. This incident was prior to his conversion, and is what drove him into being a monk.



I agree with Jimmy here. Most point to Luther's objections to "indulgences" as the seed moments of his Protestantism. I suggest that you read his [url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html]95 Theses[/url], to get an idea of where he was at, theologically at that point. Note most historians believe that when he posted this he actually believed that the Pope was unaware of what the clergy were doing, and that if it was pointed out to him, he would give the indulences without free of charge. Mind you, at a latter date he confessed that he believed the Pope to be the antichrist.

Luther's life is an interesting one, to say the least, and from my limited study of him, I would have to consider him to be one of the most enigmatic and misunderstood individuals that the world has ever seen. As Jimmy said, beware of learning your church history from the internet (especially in this day of DaVinci Code and the associated hype), but check out reliable sources. there are people here who are studied up on the theme and both audio and text studies. But don't just stop at reading about him, read his writings. May I suggest his[url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html]Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians[/url], of which John Bunyan said, "I prefer this book of Martin Luther on the Galatians (excepting the Holy Bible) before all the books that ever I have seen, as most fit for a wounded conscience."


_________________
[b]Aaron Ireland[/b]

[u][b]How easily we forget how easy it's meant to be.[/b][/u]

[i]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i]
[b][1 John 1:8-10 KJV][/b]

[i]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/i]
[b][Hebrews 4:15-16][/b]

 2006/5/15 18:46Profile









 Re:

I think many of you have pushed what I said under the rug, claiming that 'oh thats some lies on the internet'.

Umm, but it doesn't seem like those who has studied Luther disagree with me. (I never said, luther wasnt saved but instead questioned the whole mary thing)

I think Chris JD's post was accurate on this topic. That Luther was called into monastary by 'mary' or w/e ....(for lack of a better word) and THEN gets SAVED after that.

And probly during the whole salvation stage, rejects the whole mary/god idea.

So! What have I learned? Luther cried out to Mary, at this 'call' to monastary, but that was probly BEFORE his actual conversion to Christ.

 2006/5/16 0:01
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
So! What have I learned? Luther cried out to Mary, at this 'call' to monastary, but that was probly BEFORE his actual conversion to Christ.



I think it would be safe to drop the "probably" from your statement here. Luther joined the monastry out of fear, and became a controversial figure as he taught in the college by reading directly from the Scriptures to the commmon folk(which was unheard of in those days). At some point after this, Luther became deeply convicted over his sin, and doubted the availablity of forgiveness for his sin. The abbott of the monastry (I can't remember his name, but from all accounts, he was a pious man who genuinely knew the Lord) asked him to recite the Apostle's Creed. When he arrived at "I believe in the forgiveness of sins", the abbott said, "But do you believe in the forgiveness of 'Martin Luther's sin'?" At that point Luther experience a 'crack in the doorway' to the revelation that "the Just shall live by faith".

Understand that the protestant stance against the Church of Rome is primarily against the 'dogma' that says that Christian is saved by the observance of the 'seven sacrements'. The Reformers objected to the Catholic stance that 'church tradition' holds an equal place to Scripture, because Scripture emerged from tradition. Protestants believe that it was more a matter of tradition 'recognising' Scripture, which is truth in itself. This is where the term 'Sola Scriptura' (Scripture Alone) comes from. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church rejects the Sola Scriptura stance, and a journey through a Catholic Bookshop will find as many books debunking Sola Scriptura and the reformers, as you'll find against the DaVinci Code in a Christian Bookshop (perhaps even more).

Luther didn't embrace this straight away, but seemed to come to a deeper understanding and realisation of this truth. Is this really so hard to understand? After all, there are many here who didn't start off well in this Christian walk. I for one didn't just wake up one day and figure out every deception that I was embracing, but slowly accepted it over a period of years.

So what if Luther was a "Marian Worshipper" when he joined the cloister. Reading his writings, and you'll quickly realise that he wasn't one in the end. To paraphrase Richard Owen Roberts, "Christian isn't about a great start, ir's about a glorious ending."

On an interesting note, Ignatius De Loyola (founder of the Society of Jesus, aka the Jesuits) was a contemporary of of Luther, and when he began to see the excesses that Luther observed, he dedicated his life to the service of Mary and the Holy See.


_________________
[b]Aaron Ireland[/b]

[u][b]How easily we forget how easy it's meant to be.[/b][/u]

[i]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i]
[b][1 John 1:8-10 KJV][/b]

[i]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/i]
[b][Hebrews 4:15-16][/b]

 2006/5/16 7:45Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Have not read all the posts, but I like what Reidhead said,

"We had a Protestant Reformation, and oh, it did everything but reform! It was good, but it didn't go far enough -- it didn't reform."


_________________
"None but Christ, none but Christ!"

-John Lambert as he burned at the stake

 2006/5/18 10:39Profile





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