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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Secret Rapture?

I personally don't agree that much with the idea of a 'secret rapture' where all the believers in Christ will all of a sudden disappear into the sky to meet Jesus before any judgements come upon the earth. Its also known as the Pre-Tribulation rapture doctrine. As far as I know it was started by dispensationalists, brethren ones to be exact about 150 years ago.

[b]Matthew 24:30-31 (niv)[/b] - At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

It seems quite clear to me that when Jesus comes back all the World will see him and then he will gather (rapture) all the believers to himself. I am not trying to prove or discuss the timing of this but just the fact that it is not a secret rapture but a public one will help clear up alot of misconceptions floating around these days about end times doctrines (escatology).


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/12/27 12:13Profile
moreofHim
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 Re: Secret Rapture?

I agree. While I can't prove it, the scriptures appear this way to me too. The key is to look at the scriptures as if you haven't already been taught "Christian city's" view(man's teaching).

Left Behind, I believe, is false and for good reason. Everyone, including non believers accepts this story. I don't think so. Plus, those who know we might remain until the end, must be willing to die, or whatever it takes for Christ. This has strengthened my faith completely.

I don't like to get into debates about it. I only know that i am prepared to go through tribulation, I have strengthened my faith through this. If I am wrong and we fly up and away before this- great!!! But at least I am living as a completely surrendered vessel.


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Chanin

 2003/12/27 16:54Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
The key is to look at the scriptures as if you haven't already been taught "Christian city's" view(man's teaching).


AMEN to that :-D

Quote:
I only know that i am prepared to go through tribulation, I have strengthened my faith through this. If I am wrong and we fly up and away before this- great!!! But at least I am living as a completely surrendered vessel.


That's totally my view point also!

I ran across this also today in the scriptures:

[b]1 Thessalonians 4:16 (niv)[/b] - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

'with a loud command' that doesn't seem like to much of a secret event. Also in Matthew ch24 Jesus says his coming will be like the lightning that flashes across the sky, and 'every eye will see him, even those that pierced him.'


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/12/27 17:43Profile
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 Re:

I read almost all of the Left Behind series which I'm sure so many of us are familiar with, and as a new Christian agreed with the doctrine of Pre-Trib. Now I've studied His Word more on my own, and what stands out to me is this:

Luke 14:27 - [color=FF0000]And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.[/color]
Acts 14:22b - "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 - Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonour, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
James 1:2-3 - Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
Revelation 2:3 - You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

Christ didn't come to spare us from suffering and trials. We endure trials, and the tribulation to come, in order for us to be "crucified with Christ" (Galatians 2:20). We're to endure those seven years of tribulation, and you know, I don't mind. Not only because it's what God wants (which I'm always more than okay with), but because I know that those seven years will probably be the best time of growth and fellowship with God that I've ever had -- as trials test and grow our faith. And at the end, it's more than worth it, because I get to see my Savior come down in full glory and spend the rest of all eternity with Him! Hooray!


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Mary M.

 2003/12/28 13:28Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
We're to endure those seven years of tribulation, and you know, I don't mind. Not only because it's what God wants (which I'm always more than okay with), but because I know that those seven years will probably be the best time of growth and fellowship with God that I've ever had -- as trials test and grow our faith. And at the end, it's more than worth it, because I get to see my Savior come down in full glory and spend the rest of all eternity with Him! Hooray!


When I read the scriptures I get a very sad and awful picture of how its going to be in the endtimes, personally I would not want to go through it but if its Gods will then Gods grace will strengthen me.

[b]Matthew 24:21-22 (niv)[/b] - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

this passage shocks me. 'from the beginning of the world until now' WOW :-o my mind can't even imagine how awful and terrible these days will be. God we need you so badly to prepare us for these days if we are going to experience them in our lifetime.

I do agree with you Mary that we will have to suffer as you clearly showed with all those great scriptures. If the Christian life is all fun and games and just joy and peace for you.. then watch out! Christianity is sombering, its life and death.


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 2003/12/28 14:08Profile
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 Re:

Those verses are good! This has also changed the way I am raising my kids. I am raising them to accept that there are many hardships to come and that they may face. They need to be so dedicated to the Lord that they will always be able to "stand" strong.

I don't want them thinking that they might just be wisked away some day and that there life will be a bed of roses.

We can enjoy freedom now in the Lord and rejoice in this- but it is not to be a frolicking journey.

Persecution strengthens Christianity like nothing else! Look at the early church. Look at China and the Christians there. Christianity is flourishing there amidst terrible persecution. I think when Rome adopted christianity as it's religion, it made it acceptable- thus not much persecution- thus lukewarmness. The only ones who were persecuted were the ones who differed from their views. I may be wrong here but this is what comes to mind. I don't know how I got started on this. :0

Anyway, I think it's important for our children to know the truth about 'rapture/tribulation' so they can be prepared in their hearts.

It's not so much being prepared for the tribulation physically or materially- it's being prepared in our hearts. Are we willing to do anything for Him, go anywhere for Him, endure anything for Him? I am now. :)


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Chanin

 2003/12/28 14:17Profile
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 Re:

Chanin (moreofHim) --
You're right -- this perspective should change the way a Christian treats life. One of the things God taught me, thankfully early in my walk (though still not without learning from mistakes), is to never tell a new Christian [only] how wonderful his/her life will be or promise the same to someone I'm witnessing to. It's not all peaches and cream -- but when I'm persecuted, I know that I must be doing something right.


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Mary M.

 2003/12/28 19:06Profile









 Re: tribulation and second coming


It has been approximately 2,000 years since Jesus walked the earth. Why do many people believe the tribulation and second coming will happen in the relatively near future, rather than, say, 2,000 years from now? Are there signs? If you look back in history, there have been many who believed the second coming was imminent. And this belief led to violence and other terrible consequences (behaviour). I look for a spiritual resurrection because it will embody Jesus' teachings of love.

Jake

 2003/12/29 0:24
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
It has been approximately 2,000 years since Jesus walked the earth. Why do many people believe the tribulation and second coming will happen in the relatively near future, rather than, say, 2,000 years from now?



[b]2 Peter 3:3-4 (niv)[/b] - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.

[b]2 Peter 3:8-10 (niv)[/b] - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

hmmm 2000 years thats only 2 days.. not too long yet :-D


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 2003/12/29 1:03Profile
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 Re:

We know not the day nor the hour but we do now that we who are in Christ shall be with Him one day in Glory.

Just a thought I had when I heard something a bit ago. The parable of the Ten Virgins says at midnight there was shout. Midnight seems to me to indicate the condition not the time. We do not know the time but we can know the condition. It seems that this can be telling us that darkness will be great, darkness representing the sinful, wicked condition of mens hearts and the world around us. If this is true Christians who are demonstrating and proclaiming with their lives the holiness of Christ will be persecuted by the opposite.

So to me this is another convincing truth against any pre-trib escape.

(1 Thes. 5:4-6) - But you, brethern, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

Keep seeking the things above.

Mike


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 2004/1/7 13:40Profile





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