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Discussion Forum : General Topics : JESUS As "LOVER"??

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Andy,

I think it is a matter of first understanding each others viewpoints on things and comparing them with the scriptures. We can't go on assumptions so the longer we talk the more we understand each other. This is why its important to be patient in these conversations. I don't want to pigeon hole anyone into a belief that they do not hold. I wish to dialogue until I have a good grasp of their positions. If we keep a charitable attitude we can get there.

God Bless,

Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/7 10:06Profile









 Re:

amen to that robert..maybe cause im over here in the uk, but this all bridal thing is new to me..i must confess to gettin brain freeze at words like paradigm,wasnt it surpose to be much simpler then this lol..
but on a surface glances the idea of being more in love with God,closer etc seem noble ideas i know i need to be..as long as holyness runs alongside it..

i know a lady who reads every book that many people have doubts about,purpose and prayer of jabez etc..you know what she the most holy woman i know..haha i scatch my head Godddddddd why she so holy and im not man o man i know them books are terrible lol (stamps feet)give me a break God..but the beauty is pure minds see pure things..

this dear lady read prayer of jabez and was like wowee how can i use this to be a blessing to others,to be rich in heaven not here.. seeeeee she went into Gods tent and come out with a Jesus mindset..like art said sometimes are very righteouness is the reason we cant go further
andy

 2006/4/7 10:41
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Andy,

Quote:
amen to that robert..maybe cause im over here in the uk, but this all bridal thing is new to me..i must confess to gettin brain freeze at words like paradigm,wasnt it surpose to be much simpler then this lol..
but on a surface glances the idea of being more in love with God,closer etc seem noble ideas i know i need to be..as long as holyness runs alongside it..



I hope at some point in the thread to delve into what it really means to love the Lord. I keep thinking of passages like, "If you love me keep my commandents" and others such as, "And this is the love of God that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous," etc.

Jesus told of a group that really thought they 'knew' the Lord but were told to depart from Him. When I say 'commandments' I am thinking of the basic teaching He set forth in the New Testament and especially the Gospels.

God Bless,

Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/7 11:01Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi TS and Robert,

Just a note. Thanks for your great example here in discussing all this.

I don't want to stir anything and seem to recall from the original something that I hope isn't missed by all the concentration just on IHOP.

Being that there was some quotes taken from those there that have a misunderstanding whether of what is being 'taught' or however they are being acquired, the point still seems to be that this is a 'new' idea being presented in a variety of ways and that maybe the foundations have been laid well in advance. Am thinking certainly of that which Robert brought up: Error begets error.

There has been an undercurrent it seems for quite awhile with where the emphesis is being placed in so much, from a variety of sources ... I guess it just seems to be that there is an 'anything goes' mentality that must accept everything and question nothing in spiritual matters.

Even in the more well mannered discussion here as of late the assumption can be made towards the 'spiritual elite' (Sorry, TS I am not taking a dig here) for bringing things into question. Maybe all that I am trying to say is that this, like many other things will likely continue to be even more difficult to work through and difuse if it is seen as a 'we\they' construct. Fortunately as you are both doing here, providing a better way of going about it.

Can't say this all took me completely by surprise, it has been with us in a more subtle way just in CCM for awhile. That it is being 'formulated' as such ... Heard some of it being taught on the radio as recently as yesterday, just going out to get gas at lunch. To be honest, the reception was poor and was straining to hear how it was being presented.

But I do wonder just how truly prevelant it is.


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Mike Balog

 2006/4/7 16:27Profile
lit4ever
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Joined: 2005/3/23
Posts: 2
Kansas

 Re:

I have to agree that I'm probably getting too old to like this kind of "romance" with the Lord. It just doesn't feel right to me.


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Suzanne St. Martin

 2006/4/8 8:47Profile
TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 An "old saints" take on the Bridegroom

Just to let those interested that The Bridegroom issue is not just a "new" paradigm. Read carefully...especially the ending and the warnings. Which catagory do you fall in? Are you a friend of the Bridegroom...or a promoter of religion.

I could not chop this article up so will include the whole of it. It is well worth reading and comparing against the original article that started this thread by Andrew.

A google will bring this up on Henry Law---

HENRY LAW (1797 - 1884). The Song of Solomon · Cordials in Temporal Troubles · Beacons of the Bible · Gleanings from the Book of Life · Forgiveness of Sins ...


The Article: by Henry Law

The Heavenly Bridegroom

"This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." Genesis 2:23

Our Bible is a very Paradise of each sweet flower and each regaling fruit. But the believer sits down most gladly in those choice spots, which are thickly set with tokens of the Savior's tenderness. Surely happiness mounts up to heaven, when on Scripture's ground, and under the Spirit's light, the soul discerns that Jesus loves with an everlasting love. Reader! this humble tract will visit you in a favored hour, if it should lead you to drink deeply of such joy.

We cannot move far amid the pages of the Word, without hearing the silver voice—Give ear unto Me, that I may tell you of My love. For this purpose each tender image speaks by turn. Does a father love with strength of manly love? Jesus is the Everlasting Father. Is a mother gentle in her soft caressings? Jesus is more constant—"they may forget, yet will I not forget you." Is a brother generous in his affections? Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren. Is the sisterly union as the intertwining of hearts' fibers? The Church is "His sister, His spouse." Is a friend noble in his sympathies? We read, "Henceforth I call you not servants, but I have called you friends."

Will not these parallels suffice? No! not if another can be added. As all colors combine to form pure light—so all tints must join to form the full portrait of a loving Savior. There remains the full-blown endearment, when heart flows into heart in bridal-union—and will Jesus claim His people as His bride? It is so! This is the emblem, which is the Spirit's choice delight. It meets us in the garden of Eden. It walks by our side throughout the green pastures of the word. It only leaves us, when Revelation writes no more. "The Spirit and the Bride say Come." Echo replies to echo, "As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you." "I will betroth you unto Me forever; yes, I will betroth you unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies."

Following such holy guidance, let us now seek Jesus in that pure feeling, which innocently played in Adam's heart, before sin entered with unhallowing touch. The narrative is simple. "So the Lord God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep. He took one of Adam's ribs and closed up the place from which He had taken it. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib and brought her to Adam." But the mystery is deep. A greater than Adam and the first spouse are in this history of sinless union. Faith has been taught, and quickly learns, that the spiritual Bridegroom and the mystic bride are here! Earth's first espousals are but the shadow of heaven's far earlier love.

The second Adam sleeps a sleep—even the sleep of death; but not in Eden's innocent delights, but on the hard altar of His ignominious cross. His side is pierced. There flow thence the means to constitute the Church. There is blood to expiate every sin—and water to wash from every stain. The Father presents the bride to Adam. The same Father gives the favored bride to Christ. Adam receives her as portion of himself. Christ's word takes up the same welcome. They "are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones."

We are thus emboldened to draw with reverential pen some lines of likeness. Marriage can only be in kindred race. Here the bride is low in lowly origin. Her coarse material is clay. But Jesus dwells in heaven's bright palace, bright in all the brightness, glorious in all the glories of His own Deity. How can union be? He leaves His home. He veils His Almighty might. He seeks our cell. He scorns not our loathsome rags. He is born a child of man in Bethlehem. He lives the Son of Man in human nature.

O my soul! did your Lord thus stoop to make you His forever? He did. Infinite was the distance—but He came with lightning-speed on wings of love—and rested not, until He rested in your far-off abode. The bridegroom counts all efforts light to win the bride's regard. Can it be, that Jesus strives to gain unlovely souls? It is so! He lives, when we love. He scarcely seems to reign, until the heart presents her throne. Hence in the Scriptures He sends letter upon letter, each burning with the pure flame of tenderness. Hence He follows with the fond call—Turn! turn! Look unto me. Come unto Me. Return unto Me. Follow Me. Abide in Me. Hence He sends His faithful ministers—the friends of the Bridegroom—to plead His cause—to appeal in His behalf—to beseech in His name—to set forth His matchless charms—to show that His love is strong as death, and pure as the light, and boundless as eternity. That ministry is most true to Christ—most rich in everlasting fruits, which paints most vividly the mind of Christ.

But more than this. The Holy Spirit comes commissioned by the Father and the Son. He reveals the Lord in all the beauties of His person—all the wonders of His grace—all the glories of His work. He subdues all prejudice—turns the stream of opposing will—and kindles a blazing torch in the dark corners of the soul. Thus union is achieved. The faithful soul forgets her own people and her father's house. She casts out the former rivals, which bewitched her thoughts. She comes out and is separate from a once-fondled world. She leaves all, and cleaves to Christ.

In nuptial bonds the bride rejects the distinction of her former name. A new address attests that she is no more her own. It is just so in spiritual union. What! though the nature of Jesus proclaims essential Deity—that very nature is the Church's diadem. We are first told, that "The Lord our Righteousness" is His name. The same is her portion, for it is added, "The Lord our Righteousness" is her name too.

The bridegroom courts the closest communion. It is even so with Jesus. By His Word, and through His messengers, He allures His people to His side. He opens to them the purposes of His grace—the secrets of His kingdom. He encourages them to tell out their every need, and fear, and desire, and hope. He tenderly invites, "Let me see your countenance, let me hear your voice, for sweet is your voice, and your countenance is lovely."

Who can portray a bridegroom's sympathy? It is, however, but a drop compared to the full ocean of a Savior's care. "We have not a High Priest, who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities." "He who touches you, touches the very apple of His eye." "In all our affliction He is afflicted." No suffering member can be pained on earth, but the participating Head cries out in heaven, "Why are you persecuting Me?" Reader! you have often heard these truths. Do they touch a responsive chord within? If not, yours is not the bride-like spirit.

The bridegroom brings his dowry. And does not Christ enrich with gifts? Angels may marvel, dazzled by the Church's wealth. He holds back nothing from her. All His attributes are her grand inheritance. His wisdom is hers to guide. His power is hers to uphold. His love is as the sun to cheer. His faithfulness and truth are her shield and support. His Spirit is poured down in unfailing measure to teach, to solace, and to bless her. His righteousness is hers, to be her spotless robe. His heavens are hers, to be her home. His throne is hers, to be her seat. His glory is hers, to be her crown. His eternity is hers, that she may joy forever. Happy the soul, which responds—All this I steadfastly believe!

The bridegroom shrinks from no labors, which bring support and plenty to his beloved. Thus Jesus lives a life of watchful work. He rests not night and day. His outstretched hands are ever pleading, and ever pouring down supplies of grace. He purchased all Heaven's blessing, that His people may never lack. And as each need arises, He is all vigilance to see—all bounty to bestow. Earthly union often knows the pang of separation. Duty's stern voice may say—Depart. Necessity may force to lonely distance. But nothing in heaven, or earth, or hell, unlocks the arms which cling around a divine Bridegroom! At each moment He is nearer than the shadow to the side. Life is but leaning on His arm. Death is but sleeping on His breast. There is a never-failing bond in the sure world, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

In this cold world, affections cool. The day, which dawns in love, may close in hate. Tastes vary and cause variance. Discordant tempers make discordance. Far otherwise is the heavenly wedlock. It is ever true, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit."

When Jesus calls in love, He changes by His spirit. He imparts a new nature, whose every pulse is unison with Himself. It is heaven's own harmony, when Christ is all. Here a house is often tears, because of godless offspring. Many a one has sighed, "O Absalom, my son, my son!" But from heavenly union nothing springs but heavenly seed. Believers are married to Christ, that they should bring forth fruit unto God. Apart from Him, the heart is the hotbed of evil. United to Him, it is the holy parent of each holy grace.

But at present the Church sees her Bridegroom only by the eye of faith. The veil of flesh impedes the meridian gaze. But yet a little while and the day of visible espousals will arrive. A startled universe will hear the shout, "Behold the Bridegroom comes." There will resound, "as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Hallelujah, for the Lord God omnipotent reigns. Let us be glad, and rejoice, and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." Then shall He shine forth, "to be admired in His saints, and to be glorified in all those who believe." The bride "shall be brought unto the king in clothing of needlework; with gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought, they shall enter into the king's palace." The nuptial song shall be one ceaseless Hallelujah. Happy soul, which responds—All this I confidently expect!

Reader! is it your happy privilege to know that a union, which thus lives forever, cements your heart to Christ, and Christ to you? Remember, then, that this blessed relationship demands your faithfulness. The Lord is jealous of His people's love. You must not stray from Him for one single moment, or in one single thought. The caution is needful; for days are come, in which strangers are gone forth, professing to be the Bridegroom's friends. They even stand in pulpits, and give instruction in His name. By this sign you may know them. They exalt the bride rather than her Lord. They magnify His ordinances rather than Himself. They beguile her to admire herself, to lean on herself, to trust in herself, and to decorate herself in the mock robes of false humility and superstition. Take heed; the ground is slippery. It may seem pleasant to self-loving nature; but it slopes towards Antichrist!

It may be that some worldling reads this whose life is wedded to another lord. Would that such may turn and burst their fearful bonds! There is indeed the prince of this world. His promises are lies. His dowry is anguish. His embrace is death. His chamber is darkness. His bed is flames of fire. His marriage-wail is agony's wild shriek. Worldling, can you love this spouse?


Thank you whoever put this on sermonindex home page as a random article...it just so "happened" that God let me run across it.

Blessings,
TS

 2006/4/11 23:14Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: An "old saints" take on the Bridegroom

Hi TS,

Quote:
It may be that some worldling reads this whose life is wedded to another lord. Would that such may turn and burst their fearful bonds! There is indeed the prince of this world. His promises are lies. His dowry is anguish. His embrace is death. His chamber is darkness. His bed is flames of fire. His marriage-wail is agony's wild shriek. Worldling, can you love this spouse?



I like this quote. By and large the article is good, I think. Although I try to balance it knowing that as a foundational piece, one may build upon it hay, wood, or stubble. I don't recall reading anything new in terms of my understanding of the 'great mystery'. It is a good synthesis, though I think some things were underemphasized (such as the obedience of the Bride).

I also think that if we walk in the mindset He presents here we are in danger of eschatological over-realization. If this is the time where the Bride is to 'make herself ready' then there is no way I can take on an almost [i]playful[/i] attitude towards Christ. I simply do not find anyone in the New Testament relating to the Lord like this, anywhere. The writings to the 7 churches are sobering enough for me not to take on the playful attitude of two infatuated youth when I approach God. I just cannot relate to God in this way and know of few historical writings in which men have done so. It brings Christ down on a 'human' level almost stripped of His Deity.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire (Hebews 12:29, 30)

Perhaps we should examine this passage. I have read where God depicted as a consuming fire is that it is a fire of love, etc. almost like the passage is saying God is burning with love for His Bride, etc. But what is the context? A few verses earlier we read:

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: (12:25)

This is a clear warning. It is intended to arrest our attention and embolden our focus. There is a present and real danger to turning away from Christ. We read... [i]For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth...[/i]. If we drop back a few chapters to Hebrews 10:28,9 we see a similar statement, [i]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/i]

Back in Hebrews 2 the course is set for the whole book with this solumn warning, [i]For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;[/i].

Now, lets return to our passage:

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire (Hebews 12:29, 30)

How are we to serve God? We have two words joined by the conjunction 'and':

1) [b]Reverence[/b] [i]aidos[/i] (ahee-doce') [u]Bashfulness[/u], i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe -- reverence, shamefacedness.


2) [b]Godly Fear[/b] [i]eulabeia[/i] (yoo-lab'-i-ah): [u]Caution[/u], i.e. (religiously) reverence (piety); by implication, dread (concretely) -- fear(-ed).


As I put these two terms together it seems to militate against an attitude of two lovers looking into each others eyes; or what the old timey Ozark country folk would call 'sparkin'. Shamefacedness means 'downcast eyes' or bashfulness. But it does not end there. We have a '+' or an addition. We have aidos (modesty and awe) + eulabeia (Caution).

The only other place eulabeia is used is in Hebrews 5:7,

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he [u]feared[/u]; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

So this is the attitude of our Lord Himself towards His Heavenly Father. The word comes from a root that means to take hold of and act right. In its root form it is translated 'devout'. This lends me to think of a person who [i]truly[/i] "feared the Lord". In other words, they had had a revelation of the Majesty of God and understood to a significant degree the contrast between who [i]they[/i] were and who [i]God[/i] is. I believe it was our Lord showing us an example of how we ought to behave. Notice "though He were a Son". What was the Lord teaching us through His example? He is the Son of God and He relates like this in prayer? To me this is the crux of the case. Is God to be viewed as the Majestic Almighty that He is; or something else? Either He is a consuming Fire or He is not.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/12 8:16Profile
TS
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Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

Hi Robert;

your quote:

I also think that if we walk in the mindset He presents here we are in danger of eschatological over-realization. If this is the time where the Bride is to 'make herself ready' then there is no way I can take on an almost playful attitude towards Christ. I simply do not find anyone in the New Testament relating to the Lord like this, anywhere. The writings to the 7 churches are sobering enough for me not to take on the playful attitude of two infatuated youth when I approach God. I just cannot relate to God in this way and know of few historical writings in which men have done so. It brings Christ down on a 'human' level almost stripped of His Deity.

This last sentence especially seems ironic. Christ did indeed come down to a “human” level...fully man...fully God. It is a main reason for our ability to relate to Him. It is now and always has been His best try (meaning perfect in His part...the failure was ours) to make someone able to commune with Him...not as subjects... but as His children or sons/daughters on earth...and His Bride when the end comes. The reason we cannot grasp the Bridal paradigm in my opinion is that we have never grasped our relationship as sons/daughters. One is not any weirder than the other...both hard to fathom with our limited/faulty sinful hearts. Both examples; in “human” terms of a God created relationship that is so wondrous that we simply cannot really believe there are no “strings” attached. The strings I speak of are initiated on the human level by putting the letter of the law above the Love of Grace. There by we go back to a works mentality...easing our conscience and somehow coming to subconsciously believe that we are “doing” something to earn heaven...though none or few would ever admit to this. Do not look at what they admit but at what they allow or do not allow as being proof of their “purity” or “holiness” before God. And no I am not preaching a "cheap" grace theology...on the contrary it is worth much more than we can fathom....encouraging us to love and OBEY Him becasue of the value of it...not using it as a license for sin.

As far as anyone in the New Testament relating to Christ in a similar way...I should think a retake at John the Beloved’s behavior might be justified. Resting on the Lords breast is something that makes me uncomfortable....likely it made Peter uncomfortable...but Christ and John thought it simply intimate. Is this then something to make a perversion out of? Or should we just not let it be something that we/I do not quite understand...but know that Christ felt it appropriate. In this sad day and age I would find it uncomfortable to rest my head on my own brothers breast...not becasue I don't think I love him but that love and sex has become so pervertedly twisted and intertwined that I could not help but feel uncomfortable. John on the other hand grasped what/who Christ was to the extent that this rough fisherman with all looking on could feel comfortable doing this...what did he see/know that we don't? When we meet Christ as King/Savior/Bridegroom/Brother etc...do you really want to be so stiff as to "love" Him by showing what you have done on earth? Keeping the rules of your particular denomination or even personal beliefs so that you may lay these as some kind of trophy at His feet? Me I hope to simply say thank you for saving me in all the sin that was my life...Please teach me to love you the way John did for I do not understand.

The attitude towards the Lord is not just playful it is loving...in the original creation...look at the sense of humor God has....giraffes, kangaroos...skunks! Could this God that we are to approach in only a Kingly manner be so comical? Only if He is equally apprachable as a bridegroom, a king, a father, a brother...we look at these attributes as being seperate from each other...that is becasue we are human and cannot wrap our brains around what He would look like in the multi-dimensions of who He is...All at once. When we see Him as He is (in the reality of Eternity) it will all make sense. Now it is by Faith that we have to take it (the Bridal Paradigm) for what the scripture makes evident that it is...not by our understanding.

I will dig and find more evidence...it is simply called Love of a kind we as Humans cannot really understand well...or at all it seems.

Blessings,
TS

 2006/4/12 19:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi TS,

Quote:
As far as anyone in the New Testament relating to Christ in a similar way...I should think a retake at John the Beloved’s behavior might be justified. Resting on the Lords breast is something that makes me uncomfortable....likely it made Peter uncomfortable...but Christ and John thought it simply intimate.



I had the priviledge once of celebrating Passover (thats today btw) first century style. We laid on the floor with our heads towards our food- propped up on our elbow. Imagine lying down on your side with your head propped up. Everyone faced the person they talked to. We were quite close together and had I leaned back far enough I could have put my head on the chest of the guy behind me. I think this is what was happening with our Lord and John. Certainly nothing out-of-bounds.

Quote:
Please teach me to love you the way John did for I do not understand.



I certainly sympathize with this. My point is that when this same John saw the glorified Christ he fell at His feet as [i]dead[/i]. From that time on we have another facet or Revelation of the Son of God. I have to admit, that the Jesus who carries the lamb in His arms is near blown to bits when I read these passages:

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1)

The more revealing thing is how He begins to deal with the churches. The 7 churches were just as much His Bride as we are. Consider a few quote:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (2:4, 5)

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (2:20-23)

This is our Lord's approach to calling for repentance. I have to admit, I have rarely even heard these passages preached and we have much of the exact type of behavior going on in churches today. Now, we have to ask, what is the difference between the Lord's reaction to these things and now? All things are equal as we have no change in doctrine or covenant from Revelation 2 until now.

And this is the whole point I believe Andrew is trying to present. Why would we depict the Lord as a Groom chasing His Bride madly in love when we already have revelation into what He would truly be doing if he we to find us in the state we are in because He has already shown it in Revelation 2 & 3. To me it is dangerous to tell a people that the Lord is sending one message when the [i]real[/i] message is radically different. That is, unless we are prepared to suggest that the Body of Christ today is in a Philadelphian state?

Does that make sense?








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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/13 8:54Profile





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