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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...

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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...


i've been seeking our Lord as to why His continued leading of me to understand more and more of so many of the intricacies of the happenings in our world today when most folk (myself included were He not steering me in this direction) are so pre-occupied with their present until they have no time for learning from the past, and staunchly refuse to entertain anything but "rosiness" for the future - even tho all the signs point to a future far less than "rosy" ...

The Icy Wind of Poverty Blowing in the Air ...
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9924&forum=35&35

Nobody wants to hear "gloom and doom" reports upfront and will do whatever's necessary to avoid it and it's messengers - we got the OT accounts of Israel to verify ... i thank God that i no longer am unctioned to share these learnings with others in my every day life anymore (tho i still feel unction to share them here), as for one thing unless someone comes into a big bundle of cash quickly there isn't enough time left for us working class to get out of the kind of debt most Americans are in now (it took me 10 years) before the bubble bursts ... In fact i've seen most folk i know get into even deeper and deeper debt over the years, especially in these home Re/Fi's ... i've even had saints say to me "What's the scare, if i get all that i can get now and enjoy it if the economy collapses at least i enjoyed it while i had it" ... i used to think that same way until God in His gracious mercy began to really shake me up regarding how important "stewardship" is to Him in all matters of His "entrustings" to us ...

The burden i believe our Lord has given me is for His saints/Church, particularly here in America ... i would say that i probably now spend about 90% of my prayer life in petition for the saints/Church, with SERIOUS emphasis on His sending us Revival ... i was in the midst of just such yesterday when Holy Spirit began strongly recalling this scripture to me ...

[b]Luke.16
[10] He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
[11] If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
[12] And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
[13] No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.[/b]

... Now i must share with you that this leading has now somewhat stymied me because while Holy Spirit recalled to me this portion of Jesus' parable that i remembered and thought i thoroughly understood, it was vs.1-9 that He was really intent on focusing my attention to and He did ...

[b]Luke.16
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
[2] And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
[3] Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
[4] I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
[5] So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
[6] And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
[7] Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
[8] And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
[9] And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.[/b]

Now i take it back then Jesus was making reference to the Pharisees because vs. 14 & 15 go on to say;

[b][14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.[/b]e3

But was has struck me is that in the midst of beseeching our Lord regarding His saints/Church this is the scripture i recieved in my spirit from our Lord for contemplation, if not in answer ... It's so obvious to me that we (American) saints have so much to be repented of, and while i'd appreciate any illumination anyone has to offer the following questions now fill my mind in just how this parable could, or does, have a parallel lesson/message to us modern day (particularly American) saints ... So to take a page from bro. Jeff (rookie) here are a few of my questions re: this parable ...


[b]- Who is the "unjust steward"? ... Are we "unjust steward's today"?[/b]

[b]- In vs. 1 what did this unjust steward "waste" of His Master's? ... Are we today "wasting" our Master's goods, and if so what.[/b]

[b]- Via vs. 2 is it possible for us to lose our "stewardship" position, and if so will we even further short-change our Lord by selfishly doing what's recorded in vs. 3 & 4?[/b]

[b]- i surmise that the "they" in vs. 4 are the same as the Lord's debtors in verse 5 ... But who are these "Lord's debtors" in vs. 5?[/b]

- It seems to me that the unjust steward had already short changed his Master in his initial dis-service to him and that in vs. 5-7 he further short changes his Master again by collecting only a percentage of what was owed to the Master for his own future selfish benefit ... So ...

[b]- Why did the Master "commend" the unjust steward in vs. 8 as having "done wisely", and what did the Master mean by "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light"?[/b]

[b]- And what does "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."[/b]


i know God is displeased with our stewardship today, but to me by the very fact that He's prompted me to post this thread shows He's still in His business of grace towards us ... We all still have a small window of pro-active "repentance from dead works" if we own ourselves up to being "unjust stewards" in ALL His provisions entrusted to us ...

[b]- What will some of us be prompted to do if our "talents" of stewardship (especially financial) be taken away from us?[/b] ... i shudder to think.

 2006/3/28 15:03Profile
RobertW
Moderator



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4611
Independence, Missouri

 Re: WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...

Quote:
Nobody wants to hear "gloom and doom" reports upfront and will do whatever's necessary to avoid it and it's messengers



I recently was listening to a documentary on the Federal Reserve called 'monopoly men'. Kind of 'alarmist' and conspiracy theory based, but interesting and alarming to say the least.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

 2006/3/28 17:28Profile
RobertW
Moderator



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4611
Independence, Missouri

 Re: WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...

Quote:
Luke.16
[10] He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
[11] [u]If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?[/u]
[12] And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
[13] No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



I think that one of the great tests as believers is how do we treat money. Does the money make the decisions or does God? When God says to 'pray' we pray, but do we give without hesitation when He says give?

You don't have to be rich to serve the God of mammon. All you have to do is obey 'it' instead of God.

Do we take John Baptists 'fruits worthy of repentance' seriously? I mean, do we horde things knowing we have neighbors or brethren in need? Will we give as quick as pray for needs?

I wonder if sometimes we think we need to hear from God in order to give, but we don't need to hear from God to spend on ourselves. If I love my neighbor AS myself, I will spend as quick for their needs as mine when it is in my power to do so.

As a parent, have you ever told your child, "I should not have to tell you to do everything, you should do it just because you see its needs to be done and you were 'right there'." Wonder if God ever feels like that? Just wondering? Should it not be our nature to give? Art Katz has a sermon called something like, "The good, the enemy of the best." In it he states that we should basically hear from God before we do about anything. I love Art, but I cannot agree with this. Some things should be our nature and to love our neighbor as ourself should be a natural expression.

There are a lot of needs out there. It is still more blessed to give than it is to receive. It is always more fulfilling to meet a need than to spend on 'self'. I tell my kids that 2 things gratify me as concerning money; to pay off a debt and to give in the name of a disciple. :-)


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

 2006/3/28 17:39Profile
RobertW
Moderator



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4611
Independence, Missouri

 Re: WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...

Quote:
Who is the "unjust steward"? ... Are we "unjust steward's today"?



I think this is just a generic man who was a bad investor. He loaned his money out to investments that did not bring a return and also in which the folk defaulted on the loans. They were not sound investments, but I do not think this has as much meaning for us today as the last passage is what seems to be the lesson:

[8] And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
[9] And I say unto you, [u]Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness;[/u] that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

Notice that the man quickly forgave much of the debt that was owed. That would seem to be such a foolish thing to do? But, note that what those who owed the money could not pay in monatary value, they could return in the form of 'friendship'. When times go bad they will remember what you did in forgiving the debt and will show you mercy or some other thing that you may have need of at the moment.

In a broader sense I see that the Lord is saying something like, [i]"that they may see your good works and glorify God in the day of visitation."[/i] I have seen folk who were backslid come back to God as a result of the goodness He showed them through the cheerful sacrificial giving of one of his Saints. I mean a [i]sacrificial[/i] gift that is entirely out of the ordinary. [i]Knowing this that it is the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance[/i]. how much more effective would it be if they received it 'directly' from the hands of the Body of Christ? Not wondering if it was God's blessing, but knowing it was God's people who cheerfully gave. All our evangelistic efforts? Wonder what would happen if we turned from mammon to God in a real sense and took the teaching of our Lord on money, giving, etc. seriously?

God bless,

-Robert


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

 2006/3/28 17:55Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...

Bro. Robert you wrote;
"I recently was listening to a documentary on the Federal Reserve called 'monopoly men'. Kind of 'alarmist' and conspiracy theory based, but interesting and alarming to say the least."

There are a couple of word/phrases that i'm very familiar with in reference to attempting to alarm folk in the past about where we are now, "alarmist" and "conspiracy theory" were certainly amongst them, along with "chicken little" and "the sky is falling" ... i just think that it's so interesting that men like Addison Wiggin, Co-Author of a new book entitled Empire of Debt was once rated a "chicken-little" and couldn't get the time of day from so-called legitimate TV but was just recently interviewed on C-Span;
http://www.c-span.org/VideoArchives.asp?z1=&PopupMenu_Name=Economy/Fiscal&CatCodePairs=Issue,EF;

There are more and more such "alarmist" now beginning to be taken more seriously ...

 2006/3/28 19:22Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: WHAT IS THE LESSON OF LUKE 16: 1-13? ...


Bro. Robert,

i think i've got a pretty good grasp on Luke 16: 10-13 ... it's the 1- 9 that i'm needing help with ... i'm doing some commentary research now but so far have come up with similar vagaries as when i did research on Rom. 9 ...

You know when Holy Spirit first started convicting me way back when about my own "unjust stewardship" (not only with $, but that's what He came at me first about) it was out of Jesus parable about the "stewards and their talents", what's recorded at Luke 12:42, and here at Luke 16: 10-13, but it was as if i'd never even read or seen 1-9 until the other day ...

i got serious about cleaning up the $ part of my stewardship about 15 years ago, because i kept hearing Holy Spirit say to me that it was "essential" i prove myself to Him in what is least ... It took me about 10 years to clean up my prior mess and get to where i felt wiser in my handling of what by then i'd come to call His $ ... In fact by then i'd began to call everything that He entrusted me with His, so much so that some told me that i'd become overly pre-occupied, and obsessed with God ... Duhhhh-yeah! ... Anyhow that was about 5 years ago and i thought surely then i could start putting something away toward these economic hard times that i believe our Lord was telling me about ... Not so, because everytime i'd begin to sock away anything that i concidered substantial, Holy Ghost would come right along and not only tell me to give it away, but who to give it to, and how much ... i remember Him asking me once if i trusted more in my nest egg than i trusted in the Lord to supply my every need ... Of course i had to answer yes, and it was then that i felt instructed of Him to give it ALL toward Christ kingdom ... My giving since has rarely been to organized churches, ministries or missions (tho sometimes), oft times to orginizations that truly care for the poor, but most times to actual fellow saints in need of way more than a "i'll be praying for you" ... And in this latter mission Holy Spirit has always instructed me to tell the saint that it is a provision straight from our Lord, that He loves them, that they owe me nothing as i am only His "steward" toward His supplying of their need ... You know one night when i was praying i heard Holy Spirit say to me, "You don't need money" ... i stopped dead in prayer and actually said out loud in troubled questioning, "I don't"? ... It was harder for me then to actually get the grasp of that, and even now sometimes i have a better handle on it than at others, especially when i see a need for "self" looming and i can't see how i'm gonna be taken care of ... Oh me of little faith ... Bless Him that He helps my/our unbelief ...

i totally understand where you're coming from about freely giving as that's something i do also, especially to the street poor and homeless which just tears me up to see, but when it comes to what i've come to call "unctioned giving" i don't do it unless i hear from Holy Spirit, and i only do it explicitly in the instruction that i hear ... No more ... No less ...

Thanks for you comments, i'll be taking all into concideration, but somehow i think there's a lesson in this parable for we the children of God ... If not, i pray God to make that plain to me ... If so, i pray even all the more ardently ...

Blessings in Christ to you pastor!

Bro. R

 2006/3/28 19:26Profile
Canuck
Member



Joined: 2006/3/28
Posts: 1
BC, Canada

 Re: the shrewd manager

I wonder if sometimes we overanalyze Christ's parables, looking for allegorical meaning in every detail when Christ didn't intend them that way. For instance, in this parable, my sense is that the business about the manager wasting his master's wealth and being fired is all there just to set up this question: If you were in charge of someone else's resources and were about to lose that job, what would be the shrewdest thing to do?

And Christ uses the wordly man's answer as a lesson for us. In verse 8, Christ says, "For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light." Christ isn't commending the dishonesty to us. Rather, I believe he's saying, "Look how shrewd even the unrighteous are with their money. You could learn a lesson from them." For that reason, I don't think we should look for an analogy to ourselves in the person of the manager. He's an unrighteous guy who is cheating his boss. But there's a lesson to be learned from this shrewd guy nonetheless.

Christ's point is this. The manager knows he's getting fired and, of course, he won't be taking any of his master's finances with him. So what does he do? He uses that money in the short time he has left to win friends who will help him after he gets the boot.

Getting fired seems to be a picture of death, especially since Christ says in verse 9, "I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings"

The point of the story is that, since we know we will one day lose our job as money managers (i.e. die), there's no point in hoarding our worldly wealth. Instead, we should invest it in the only thing that will last - eternal relationships. The manager, knowing that he was about to lose his job, realized that the only value that money had to him was what it could do for him after he lost his job. By giving it away, he effectively kept it. (He who saves his life will lose it.) In the same way, we need to realize that the only way we can get lasting value out of our worldy wealth is to give it away.

As a tight-fisted person by (sinful) nature, this parable has helped me realize that speding my money on other people is actually the best investment I can possibly make with it.

If anyone sees more to the analogy, I'm all ears, but that's my take on it.

 2006/3/28 19:55Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 not trying to hijack the thread but...

bro Robert

Quote:
As a parent, have you ever told your child, "I should not have to tell you to do everything, you should do it just because you see its needs to be done and you were 'right there'." Wonder if God ever feels like that? Just wondering? Should it not be our nature to give? Art Katz has a sermon called something like, "The good, the enemy of the best." In it he states that we should basically hear from God before we do about anything. I love Art, but I cannot agree with this. Some things should be our nature and to love our neighbor as ourself should be a natural expression.



i tend to agree with art in this regard. i think the things which the Lord hasn't said for us to do are of no use. i've had many instances when i've had a bright spark and acted on it only to hear the Lord say "I didn't tell you to do that." many things we think to do seem good enough but if they are born of the flesh as opposed to the Spirit then they don't glorify God. i mean even the heathen love their neighbours and give to them and so on but we are called to be above and beyond that and the only way is to follow the leadings of the Spirit of God.

bro Rahman
i knew this would find it's way onto the boards!


_________________
SON OF THUNDER FORGED BY FIRE IN THE FOUNDRY OF HEAVEN AND SENT FORTH OF GOD WITH THE MESSAGE "REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!" AND IN WHOM THE LORD'S HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BEING WROUGHT.

 2006/3/29 2:10Profile
RobertW
Moderator



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4611
Independence, Missouri

 Re: not trying to hijack the thread but...

Quote:
i mean even the heathen love their neighbours and give to them and so on but we are called to be above and beyond that and the only way is to follow the leadings of the Spirit of God.



Yes. This is another critical aspect of giving. I believe it takes to the Holy Spirit at work in a believer for them to give with absolutely no strings attached. The parable is interesting because it seems to lend to the attitude of the recipient being one of gratitude resulting in some sort of 'friendship', but it don't work the other way. In other words, it is totally up to the receiver to respond rightly to the gift. The giver is not allotted the priveledge of pressing the matter. The world 'gives' and [i]expects[/i] something in return. This does not mean we can't [i]hope[/i] for something in return (in terms of them being turned to Christ, etc.), but at the moment we [u]press[/u] the issue with them and remind them of the gift, the whole effect is lost.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

 2006/3/29 8:25Profile
RobertW
Moderator



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4611
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The point of the story is that, since we know we will one day lose our job as money managers (i.e. die), there's no point in hoarding our worldly wealth. Instead, we should invest it in the only thing that will last - eternal relationships. The manager, knowing that he was about to lose his job, realized that the only value that money had to him was what it could do for him after he lost his job. By giving it away, he effectively kept it. (He who saves his life will lose it.) In the same way, we need to realize that the only way we can get lasting value out of our worldy wealth is to give it away.

As a tight-fisted person by (sinful) nature, this parable has helped me realize that speding my money on other people is actually the best investment I can possibly make with it.



This is a great summary. And I believe, along with contentment, a person who gives lives a very fulfilling life here on earth. The blessedness of giving here and the reward after. One of the more provoking passages in NT scripture on giving:

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: [u]his righteousness remaineth for ever. [/u]Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; (II Corinthians 9 KJV)

A lot in this passage. But it is certain that God regards alms giving. That is evident from the passage on Cornelius. But, here it seems that God will keep feeding resources to the one that is faithful to keep 'sowing' them. Not into mega-ministries necessarily as some have taught, but 'abroad' and to the 'poor'. This is a river of wealth flowing through the hands of a good steward.



_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

 2006/3/29 8:34Profile





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