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Joined: 2005/12/25
Posts: 10

 The radical Christian life is the normal Christian life

Hi, my name is Daniel. Leonard Ravenhill said, "I do not think that Christianity today is true Christianity." I would like to pose a thought from the scriptures to you. Paul was told by King Agrippa, "Your great learning has made you insane." He appeared insane. He was so different from anything Agrippa knew that he seemed to be crazy--so great was his message. I submit to you that...

the radical Christian life is the normal Christian life and anything less is abnormal or an abomination.

True Christianity costs your life, for, "He who would come after me must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me," and, "those who belonged to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires," and those who are "baptized with Christ are... dead indeed unto sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." In other words, those who are Christ's lost their own identity in a baptism or immersion into Christ's death and they come out of the water of baptism as a new man who is dead to what he once was and is not wholly given over to God. Notice that the crucifixion of the believer is not only passive, but also active (done by the believer,) for, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." There is no known torture, brutal or painful or grotesque end for a man than crucifixion. So great is the dichotomy between the old man and the new that the first has to be tortured and executed for the other to come to be.
A believer who has come to Christ has fully cut off his identity with the old man. He is a good soldier who lives only to please his master and does not get involved in civilian affairs. He mortifies by the Spirit the deeds of the flesh. He abstains from fleshly desires that was against his soul. His heart is on things above. He is truly a citizen of another world. He is other-worldly. His hope creates questions in the eyes of those who see him. He is set-apart enough to be cast-out from society. His life is not his own. He has pledged his head to heaven. When men see him they see an ambassador for another world. Men intuitively think of Jesus when they think of him because he always and only speaks and acts in His name. His inward and outward holiness fulfills the Sermon on the mount by the Spirit. The blood of the New Covenant is his daily drink. He is satisfied with the bread of Jesus Christ. He is so thirsty for the Holy Spirit through Christ that out of his heart gushes forth torrents of living water to utterly and continually quench his thirst. He is an enigma to the skeptic.
He is known for his self-sacrificial love that deals death to himself to give life to others. He is a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God (acceptable meaning without blemish.) His word is more sure than a thousand promises of the men of this age. He is above the world. He endures all, believes all and hopes all. His life is for Christ who loved him and gave Himself up for him. In fact, there is nothing left of what he once was--so changed is his identity--but Christ lives in him so that he counts all things loss for the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus our Lord. He is given over to God. He has lost his life.

Anything less than that, is abnormal and/or an abomination.

The promise of the New Covenant is that we have His law written on our minds and hearts. Grace is not a license for sin but the power not to sin. The New Covenant says, "those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." There is no license for sin, but there is a deep intolerance for it that would rather throw one's own eye than tolerate sin. In fact, the Christian is intolerant of sin. He is as willing as Christ to give His life for sinners and as intolerant of sin as the cross He died on. There is no room in the heart of a believer for anything but his First Love. His loyalty to and love for Christ causes him to say of those who do not see Him as he does, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

We are all slaves.
We are all radically given over.
We are enslaved.

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" We are slave to whatever we give ourselves to, to whatever holds our heat, "For by whatever a man is overcome, by that he is enslaved." We are either for Christ or against Christ and we are either a slave to Christ or to Satan. There is no middle ground. "Those who know God ought also to walk as He walked." Jesus's walk caused His family to rebuke Him, to make men think He was demon-possessed, offended or converted and got Him crucified.

He foretold and said:

"They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

"Blessed are you when men revile you, persecute you and speak all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake."

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. "

"If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

These things and what I said before describe the life of a normal Christian. "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." What are you doing and what are you teaching?

"Whoever would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."


 2006/3/26 22:44Profile

 Re: The radical Christian life is the normal Christian life

faint not. Good sign on name.

Sold out - not bought out.

I'm not sure I'd use that word "abomination" though. There's some young Christians who are struggling. But I get your gist and have used that term normal Christian life, from Nee's book.

He's all we'll ever need.

2Ch 16:9a For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

Pro 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Pro 22:12 The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

For some reason "the eyes of the Lord" being on everything came to mind ... and I looked it up and found quite a few, but just these are enough I guess.


 2006/3/26 23:08

Joined: 2005/12/25
Posts: 10


Thanks for the post, Annie =). I agree that we need to be reminded that the eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the earth to see those who are fully for Him. Living in the eyes of God puts a fear of Him in our hearts and a holy reverence for Him.

As for the "abomination"...

Pr 17:5 "He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."

I am not sure about young Christians, which are growing in the Lord, but I do know that there are many old "Christians" who fit the verse above. They approve of the things of T.V. and the like by purveying them all the time and are addicted to the things of this world and speak out against those who would speak out against them and they justify the wicked with words like tolerance.

I think the young Christian who is living a healthy life by the Spirit who sanctifies him may be ignorant of many of the teachings that I put in the post but he will be radical in the things he does know (and probably to the point where he is overzealous, but God will refine him.) He is certainly not an abomination. It is abnormal for a baby to do certain things, however. I think there are things that young Christians might do that are abnormal for the Christian, such as remaining in sin as if he were still a worldling, when he has been born out of the world. (It would be strange for a baby to act like a dog, when it is a baby and not a dog.) =) Thanks for your senstitivity to young Christians, I am the sort of person who is black and white and at times needs to be reminded of compassion. =)

Pro 29:27 "An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, And he who is upright in the way is an abomination to the wicked."

Also, pride and a proud person is an abominaiton to God and a perverse heart and there is Pr 6:16-19.

Something is an abomination if it is disgusting and revolts a person and it ought to revolt a Christian to see someone who names the name of Christ and looks like the world. "Even hating the clothes stained by corrupt flesh."

I hope that explains my word choice.

In God's agape love,


 2006/3/27 12:51Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Hi Annie,

I'm not sure I'd use that word "abomination" though. [u]There's some young Christians who are struggling.[/u] But I get your gist and have used that term normal Christian life, from Nee's book.

This is an ongoing topic it seems these days. Wondered if you have anything on spiritual maturity, say from I Cor. 3 and Hebrews 5? I posted a little on this on the other thread on betrayal of the ages, but wondered what your take was on it. Ron and I have gone back and forth on the whole issue of the 'flesh' and such; but it seems to me that the issue is one of spiritual maturity. You mentioned on a different thread of two Greek words for 'perfect' and hoped you could expand on that as I'm not sure you view on it.



Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/27 13:55Profile


Robert Thank You for responding.

I'll get to that thread this evening. I'm in my "trying to wake up with massive amounts of Java" mode.

Thank you again. And will do.


 2006/3/27 14:01


Hi Dan, didn't want to 'not' reply here also.

I honestly am 'not' awake yet.

Usually I come on much later in the day ... but got some critters here that love to wake me up.

Will come back when I can understand my own typing. :-? Ha.


 2006/3/27 14:05



RobertW wrote:
Hi Annie,

I'm not sure I'd use that word "abomination" though. [u]There's some young Christians who are struggling.[/u] But I get your gist and have used that term normal Christian life, from Nee's book.

This is an ongoing topic it seems these days. Wondered if you have anything on spiritual maturity, say from I Cor. 3 and Hebrews 5? I posted a little on this on the other thread on betrayal of the ages, but wondered what your take was on it. Ron and I have gone back and forth on the whole issue of the 'flesh' and such; but it seems to me that the issue is one of spiritual maturity. You mentioned on a different thread of two Greek words for 'perfect' and hoped you could expand on that as I'm not sure you view on it.



Hi Robert,
Actually I said that there were a 'few' words for "perfect". More than two.
My concern personally, is for young or old that struggle with "this walk".
We struggle because we act as the "child of the flesh" (Cain and Ishmael) in that we try to fulfill the law in our flesh (soul, human nature). Something that caused Paul to do some head banging of himself and some others.
This is the fault of the self-righteous-legalists and 'fearful', that he had to deal with constantly. Nothing new.
We use the new birth to boast that we are no longer sinners and that brings nothing but arrogance and self-righteousness.
We should NOT be consistently "sinning" per say, but we are "missing the mark" which is the Image of Christ.
Can we attain to the Image of Christ ... Phil 3 answers that about what Paul said on "attaining", but I fear as the WOF folks fault Paul for not having enough Faith, those of the legalist view may fault Paul words in Phillipians there as something worse. This is why Paul was persecuted so.
They say, "just obey" - because of their own deluded philosophy (impure Salvation Doctrines) - what Romans 8 and Galatians 5:16-25 and Eph 5:18 but be filled with the Spirit {This actually saying "continue Being filled"} just for a few here.
The O.T. law was filled by human effort ... the new and living way is "by His Spirit".
I have never heard a Sermon since college days on this, and it grieves my heart that most are trying to fulfill the law or this walk in the flesh as those verses above discuss. We've thrown out "by faith" in fear we may "sin", well, we will if we continue to trust the flesh to cease from sin.

Flesh has been Re-defined to mean some "sin" of one sort or another ... when in actuality ... flesh is anything done independent of His Spirit .... from our 'own nature, virtues even if good'.
He is looking for those that know that "in our flesh dwelleth no good thing.
Our self-effort to Not "sin" is self-effort in this sense. How do we not see the "by faith" in hundreds of verses, both O.T. & New ... and Gal 2:20 in that "the life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God ...".
Whatsoever is not done of faith is sin.

Legalism is a Faith killer and Legalism is serving or obeying God in the efforts of flesh alone. Even "obedience" can be in the flesh and counts but little (as we should mature), if at all in God's new economy.
When we stop this or that and take the credit, that we no longer do this or that, we are Pharisees.

** Walking in the Spirit is that Leaning on Him in hopeless dependence and having the faith that by so doing, HE will "perform or complete the work He's begun".
The Lord tested this out for me after I had asked for a life example about 20 years ago. I was a Delivery person and had to drive through a sea resort section. Each day I drove through the enemy would come on me in such a tremendously intense way with words saying ... "Aw, just throw in the towel and go find a yacht person here and have a Pina Colada and go Cruising."
I was flabbergasted at this, as my weakness was not adultery nor alcohol, but the temptation was so strong, that I gripped the steering wheel and my finger nails left marks in my palms. Ha- pretty intense huh ?
The Lord allowed this for 3 days and then finally I just yelled out, "Jesus help me." and immediately this demonic oppression left. WOW, what a faith builder and display how it is "all of Him and none of us", making it so different than a flesh work. My "desire" has always to be whiter than snow, since I read that verse as a new Christian and God knew my heart and that I desired to be and strive for Holiness. Holiness and Purity was my deepest desire since saved and delivered from a most ungodly putrifying life of sin. But God did not want me to go the flesh way to obedience, so we fought on the hill many times and still do, until my hip goes out ... ha.
He allows me to fall right on my face whenever I try to fulfill His laws/commands, without HIM.
Yes, that 'is' the ABIDING part. (without ME you can do Nothing). One cannot sin and Walk in the Spirit at the same time. Only when slipping back into our flesh/soul/self, do we hit another wall.

Another of the major misconceptions is the definition of sin and what the mark is, if sin is "missing the mark".
Oh foolish Galatians, Paul said, Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
His goal is to bring us into the "Image of Christ." and that 'is' "the mark". But legalism has blinded us of this, by narrowing the definition of "sin/missing the mark" into acts and not the complete Image of Christ.
Romans 8:29, etc. And this is not a work of the flesh/self/soul/human nature.
Our work is what was defined above in the sentence with the **.

That is "work" enough, because our flesh likes to take credit for our righteousness and that is why we toss aside "FAITH" of Hebrews 11, Romans, Galatians, etc. Much more "glory for ourselves" if we do it ourselves. ....... ie. "I" quit drinking.
Yes we are to "turn from sin", but it's "how" that we turn from sin that matters, if it will be the "wood, hay and stubble" (our motives or motos operatum) or by faith and walking in dependence of the Spirit to live HIS life 'through' us.
This is the "Moving on to the meat of the last verse of Hebrews 5 going into chpt. 6.
We live by the Spirit of the Law, and not the Letter. Some folks are afraid of the "Liberty we have in Christ" so compensate by living/walking in the flesh and trying to obey the law in their own strength .... Where is the Glory toward Christ in that or the Holy Spirit that differentiates us from the O.T. ? No, once again it is self-glorifying and increases the flesh.

IF our foundation is set wrong on this topic, we 'will' find ourselves in 1 Corth 3:12-15. We focus on the "do nots" but not the "how nots" ... we skim right past those needful instructions and attempt to fulfill the law in our flesh.
Granted, until one is matured (Heb 5 & 6) one should cease from sin in by their affirmative action. "Let him that steal, steal no more". We don't wait until we learn by coming into "Teleios" ('perfection' in that one is fully grown according to the knowledge that they have Thus Far). But Paul is trying to say in these verses in Hebrews, Let's move on and not stay there. "Repentance from dead works" ? How long can we stay there ?

Repentance is a state of being - of mind. We know that in our flesh dwells no good thing, and that is the humble servant who is found in the Beatitudes ... that first see that they are "poor" inwardly and then "mourns" that they are "poor" and because they see that in themselves 'at all times', that produces the "meekness" - but not content to stay there, they "hunger and thirst for righteousness" by going to Him with all of the above ... and then they shall find "mercy" and they're hearts will be "pure" "teleios".
Pro 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In[u] all thy ways[/u] acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
That 'is' "repentance and faith" in action.
Since HE started His commandments in Deut. with, to LOVE the Lord your God and others ... then that MUST be our Foundation or starting point.
The more we Love Him the more we desire to please Him, but we will go to Him with our weaknesses and by His Spirit be made into His Image, For His Glory -- for anyone that you Love, you desire that they are Esteemed, you desire to spend time with and come to know them (by His Word) and He, being the Good Husband, "cleanses us by the washing of the Word .... and faith comes by hearing the Word".
And "His" Word and Spirit, which the bride loves to hear, the Voice of The Beloved, is what she will listen for and follow ... not only from the written Word, but by His Voice as the Good Shepherd and they'll be listening in one way or another because they Love Him So and will want to hear Him, more and more and then follow as quickly as He calls.
That's obedience but it's rooted in grounded in Love and not self love.

Lord Bless.

Some "perfect" words and their uses. An Englishman's concordance or the KJ Concordance in the e-sword, can show where and how just these 3 words for 'perfect' are used. Excuse font.

Matt5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.5046

G5046 τέλειος teleios From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect. fem. noun , perfect, one who reaches a goal. Perfection or perfectness, stressing the realization of an end in view, the state achieved when a goal has been accomplished (Col. 3:14; Heb. 6:1).

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect 5048: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

5048. teleiovw teleioŒoµ; contracted teleioµ, fut. teleioµsoµ, from teŒleios (5046), complete, mature. To complete, make perfect by reaching the intended goal.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect 739, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

739. a[rtio" aŒrtios; gen. artéŒou, fem. artéŒa, neut. aŒrtion, adj. from aŒrti (737), now, exactly. Complete, sufficient, completely qualified (2 Tim. 3:17). More closely syn. with holoŒkleµros (3648), one in which all the parts are complete or whole and what they are supposed to be, so that they might serve their destined purpose.
Syn.: teŒleios (5046), perfect, complete; panteleµs (3838), entire, complete; akeŒraios (185), unmixed, blameless, without guile; pleµreµs (4134), complete; aŒmemptos (273), faultless, blameless; aŒptaistos (679), not stumbling, without sin; holoteleµs (3651), complete to the end.
Ant.: anaŒpeµros (376), crippled, maimed; choµloŒs (5560), lame; endeeµs (1729), lacking.

 2006/3/28 3:26

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Thanks so much for your time Annie. Great explaination.

I recall teaching a lesson called "the Love we had at first" and in it stated that "God resists the proud and gives grace unto the humble." I related that to another passage which deals with "this grace wherein we stand..."

As you so rightly point out, when we try to do things in the flesh we stamble and also the flesh gets puffed up when we walk in the spirit and seeks to take credit for what God is doing by His grace through the Holy Spirit. If we don't recognize this the 'pride' will cause God to [u]resist[/u] us. in other words, instead of 'giving the grace that we need to stand', He withholds His grace and we are left to stand in our own power. Soon we fail and that humbles us and we receive His grace again to 'stand'. So it seems that, [i]if we can walk in humility in the times of victory- we will have victory. There is no other way; for God resisteth the proud, but He will give grace to the humble.[/i] Humility, humility, humility.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/28 8:57Profile


The Lord through His Spirit will withhold wisdom from the proud.

That is why we must welcome chastisement rather than go Ichabod and find ourselves guilty of Satan's sin of pride.

God knows our hearts. At first He will withhold wisdom, 2nd chastisement or a thorn in the flesh, and if we persist, it's Ichabod.

The flesh 'can' get puffed up ... knowledge also puffeth up.

Not only will we be left in our own power, we will fall flat on our faces. But the Lord is long-suffering in our growth, in learning that in our flesh dwelleth no good thing, and if we walk in the Spirit, eventually we will come to realize that it is none of us and all of Him. Eventually. Walking in the Spirit does not come overnite upon Salvation, but walking in what knowledge we do have from His Word is what pleases Him. Until we learn His voice, from all of the others screaming for our attention and to distract us from our Beloved's.

We cannot produce "humility" on our own ... elsewise, Paul of all people would not have needed the thorn in the flesh.
We're no better than he and cannot produce "fruit" by our own efforts ... it is the fruit (singular) of The Spirit that comes only by abiding in Him and not in ourselves and allowing the pruning when we do produce.
Put no trust in the flesh and realize, to fear God is the beginning of wisdom. If God "resisteth" the proud, that is reason enough to "fear".

Perfect Love as in fulfilling the 1st & 2nd commandments, casts out the wrong type of fear.
And the fear of man is a snare.

We only need fear, when we walk in our own understanding - autonomous/independent from His Spirit.

May God expose to us the true nature of our hearts continuously. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility. Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness. Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

All His Best Robert.

 2006/3/28 9:49

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


Sister Ann and Brother Dan...

keep preaching so that some may hear...

Sister Ann wrote:

His goal is to bring us into the "Image of Christ." and that 'is' "the mark".

Everything you have said, I believe likewise...just wanted to pinpoint something on this one thought....

Yes the mark is the image of Christ...

What I have found is that in the flesh we may understand that the mark is being conformed into the image of Christ yet the most precise reason for explaining why we have no choice but to miss the mark according to the flesh is given in this Scripture...

Romans 7:

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

The flesh has no power to know how to perform what is good....that is why the Counselor gives to us what is of Christ....

As you have said sis...only by the Spirit are we able to understand how to perform what God has called us to be...

28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. 1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

These treasures are hidden from the flesh...

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/28 11:32Profile

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