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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : spritual perfection....i need help

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eternalmade
Member



Joined: 2006/3/24
Posts: 1


 spritual perfection....i need help

ok this is a BIG delema .....and its splitting my church in two..
its spirtual perfection.....
heres the story...well theres these 2 guys in my church and they claim that we as christains canlive with out sin...that we indeed dont have to sin... they've even said that they themsleves have achived this sinless state...now there not claiming it through there own power..but there claiming it through jesus...well

my youth pastor and my best freind/ brother...has a prablem with this teaching ...he claim that is a heresy...now im stuck somewhere in the middle beacuse ..these 2 guys i've known for all my life and my youth pastor is my brother and there is no way im going to just dich him unless its a pretty freakking good reason...so please im begging you if you have something to say..some advice..so info on the topic ...no some where where i can get info on this topic it would be much appreciated...
thank you
godbless
eternalmade...

 2006/3/24 22:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: spritual perfection....i need help

[b]Phi 3:12[/b] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

They are being arrogant and proud not walking in hummility.

They are causing dissention
Pro 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth [b]discord among brethren.[/b]

 2006/3/24 23:37Profile









 Jesus will save his people from their sins

Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son," the angel said, Mary will bear a son, "and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

The purpose of Jesus' death is to free us from our sins -- to destroy sin in us -- to free our lives from sinning. It isn't so that we'll be able to go on sinning in this life.

Romans 6:1-23 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Don't you know, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Don't you know, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thank God, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 6:6-12, "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts."

 2006/3/25 8:43









 Re: logic

You said

"They are being arrogant and proud not walking in humility."

How can a person truly be proud and arrogant if it is true work of Christ and not their own efforts!!!

 2006/3/25 9:21
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: spritual perfection....i need help

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:12-14

[b]Either were already perfect[/b] - This is a distinct assertion of the apostle Paul that he did not regard himself as a perfect man. He had not reached that state where he was free from sin. It is not indeed a declaration that no one was perfect, or that no one could be in this life but it is a declaration that he did not regard himself as having attained to it. Yet who can urge better claims to having attained perfection than Paul could have done? Who has surpassed him in love, and zeal, and self-denial, and true devotedness to the service of the Redeemer? Who has more elevated views of God, and of the plan of salvation? Who prays more, or lives nearer to God than he did? That must be extraordinary piety which surpasses that of the apostle Paul; and he who lays claim to a degree of holiness which even Paul did not pretend to, gives little evidence that he has any true knowledge of himself, or has ever been imbued with the true humility which the gospel produces.

It should be observed, however, that many critics, as Bloomfield, Koppe, Rosenmuller, Robinson (Lexicon), Clarke, the editor of The Pictorial Bible, and others, suppose the word used here - τελειόω teleioō - not to refer to moral or Christian perfection, but to be an allusion to the games that were celebrated in Greece, and to mean that he had not completed his course and arrived at the goal, so as to receive the prize. According to this, the sense would be, that he had not yet received the crown which he aspired after as the result of his efforts in this life. It is of importance to understand precisely what he meant by the declaration here; and, in order to this, it will be proper to look at the meaning of the word elsewhere in the New Testament. The word properly means, to complete, to make perfect, so as to be full, or so that nothing shall be wanting. In the New Testament it is used in the following places, and is translated in the following manner: It is rendered “fulfilled” in Luk_2:23; Joh_19:28; “perfect,” and “perfected,” in Luk_13:32; Joh_17:23; 2Co_12:9; Phi_3:12; Heb_2:10; Heb_5:9; Heb_7:19; Heb_9:9; Heb_10:1, Heb_10:14; Heb_11:40; Heb_12:23; Jam_2:22; 1Jo_2:5; 1Jo_4:12, 1Jo_4:17-18; “finish,” and “finished,” Joh_5:36; Act_20:24; and “consecrated,” Heb_7:28.

In one case Act_20:24, it is applied to a race or course that is run - “That I might finish my course with joy;” but this is the only instance, unless it be in the case before us. The proper sense of the word is that of bringing to an end, or rendering complete, so that nothing shall be wanting. The idea of Paul evidently is, that he had not yet attained that which would be the completion of his hopes. There was something which he was striving after, which he had not obtained, and which was needful to render him perfect, or complete. He lacked now what he hoped yet to attain to; and that which he lacked may refer to all those things which were wanting in his character and condition then, which he expected to secure in the resurrection. What he would then obtain, would be - perfect freedom from sin, deliverance from trials and temptations, victory over the grave, and the possession of immortal life.

As those things were needful in order to the completion of his happiness, we may suppose that he referred to them now, when he says that he was not yet “perfect.” This word, therefore, while it will embrace an allusion to moral character, need not be understood of that only, but may include all those things which were necessary to be observed in order to his complete felicity. Though there may be, therefore, an allusion in the passage to the Grecian foot-races, yet still it would teach that he did not regard himself as in any sense perfect in all respects, there were things wanting to render his character and condition complete, or what he desired they might ultimately be. The same is true of all Christians now. We are imperfect in our moral and religious character, in our joys, in our condition. Our state here is far different from that which will exist in heaven; and no Christian can say, anymore than Paul could, that he has obtained that which is requisite to the completion or perfection of his character and condition. He looks for something brighter and purer in the world beyond the grave. Though, therefore, there may be - as I think the connection and phraseology seem to demand - a reference to the Grecian games, yet the sense of the passage is not materially varied. It was still a struggle for the crown of perfection - a crown which the apostle says he had not yet obtained.

Albert Barnes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
my youth pastor is my brother and there is no way im going to just dich him unless its a pretty freakking good reason...so please im begging you if you have something to say..some advice..


Since you asked. The replacement word you used, does it change the meaning?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/25 13:34Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re: spiritual perfection

Hi Mike,

I was wondering if you see a difference in 'sinlessness' and absoulte moral perfection?

If we were to define sin as 'missing the mark' and define the mark as faith (whatsoever is not of faith is sin.) then couldn't a person reach a place in Christ where he is listening to God's voice (the indwelling Holy Spirit) believing what God says and then acting upon that belief such that he is 'faultless' before God, and yet not be perfect by absolute standards?

If he is obedient to the truth that has been revealed to him is he not 'sinless' even if he does something that is considered sin to someone else?

Judging others 'sin' by the truth that is revealed to us can be very dangerous.

Love ya!
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/25 13:54Profile









 Re:

The doctrine of entire sanctification is a dangerous doctrine, and should not be persued by someone who is new in Christ. I say STUDY it, but I would be very careful trying to apply it to my own life. It has landed many people in the looney ben. Just, PLEASE, be careful. I don't fully understand it myself, but I have read John Wesleys "A Plain Account Of Christian Perfection". I do believe in holiness, but personally I do not believe you can reach sinless perfection in this fleshly, fallen body.

I think you leave yourself open for alot of unclean spirits by persuing this type of spirituality. Not saying it can't happen. But I have never heard of, or met anyone who has reached it. I really don't think it is ment for us to reach it. If we did, why would we need God to lean on? Rom.7:15-21 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 FOR I KNOW THAT IN ME( THAT IS IN MY FLESH) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, THAT I DO.

 2006/3/25 16:10









 Re:

To etrenalmade,

What denomination are you, if I might ask? I don't want to turn this into a denominational discussion, but just curious.

 2006/3/25 16:47
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

freecd wrote:
You said

"They are being arrogant and proud not walking in humility."

How can a person truly be proud and arrogant if it is true work of Christ and not their own efforts!!!


Because they said, "that they themsleves have achived this sinless state."
The words "they themsleves" sounds bostfull.

And
Its splitting the church in two.

This can not come from good fruit.

 2006/3/25 20:37Profile









 Re:

h2oboy, you did a good post. Can I just say that "the mark" is CHRIST.

You sure did get the definition of sin right on though ... "Missing the MARK" ... which is Christ ... raises the bar a bit.

I meant to say Welcome and to get your signature to stay, on the signature place where you type it in, click on add to all posts, or whatever that wee box says that ya click.

Lord Bless.

 2006/3/25 20:59





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