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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : flesh? what flesh?

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W_D_J_D
Member



Joined: 2006/1/13
Posts: 119


 flesh? what flesh?

1 John 4:1-3
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. 3 But every spirit who does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist; you have heard that he is coming, and he is already in the world now.

2 John 1:7-9
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves so that you don't lose what we have worked for, but you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.

What am i getting at????

If you ask anyone......mormons/athiests/protestants/muslims/catholics/jehovahs witness' etc. all believe Jesus came in the flesh.......

you will here things like this "he came as a god/man.....%100 god and %100 man at the same time."
also "he was god rapped in human flesh" or "he appeared as a man" or "he was spirit and like a hologram he was still god although he looked like man"........

read the scriptures again.....and the following one.
Heb 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Ask your self what flesh did he come in? Pre fall flesh or after fall flesh? (Heb 2:16)

HE CAME AS A MAN LIKE US!!!!
i can not stress this enough.....like us...and because he lived perfect and overcame the world, so we could live perfect and overcome...

Why is it so important.....%99.9 of the churches are caught up in the spirit of the antichrist! the reason why is so they have an excuse for not overcoming sin totaly.

God bless got to go

 2006/3/23 21:18Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re: flesh? what flesh?

That is a good point. Never really seen it stressed like that.

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/3/24 0:30Profile









 Re: flesh? what flesh?

Quote:
Pre fall flesh or after fall flesh?

Your questions and answer have to be qualified by other scripture, too.

Here are some:

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Luke 3: 38
Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but [u]a body hast [b]thou[/b] prepared me[/u]:

1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

2 Peter 1
3 According as [u][b]his[/b] divine power[/u] hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto [u]life and godliness[/u], through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that [u]by these [b]ye[/b] might be partakers of the [b]divine nature[/b][/u], having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

John 1: 1 - 18

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, [who is] [b]holy[/b], harmless, undefiled, [b]separate from sinners[/b], and made [u]higher than the heavens[/u];

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


I hope I haven't misunderstood that you (W_D_J_D
) are suggesting Jesus body might have been 'fallen' flesh.

Lastly, consider Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


I realise it's possible to 'read' this, as if His body was also sinful in principle, but if that is true, then He was not an unblemished sacrifice for sin, even if He Himself did not sin. There is no way that God Himself could take on a human body, and it [u]not[/u] be a body [i]without the sin principle[/i] at work in it.

The gospel only works [i]because[/i] He was able to die FOR our sins [b]and also put to death our sinful nature[/b].

Coming to Christ for salvation [i]necessitates[/i] that [u]we count[/u] our sinful nature as [u]dead through His death[/u]. That's [i]how[/i] we are able to have righteousness [i]imputed to us[/i], such that one can receive the Holy Spirit.... and therafter [u]have power[/u] OVER sin.

Quote:
but he took on him the seed of Abraham

I believe this is a reference to the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.) rather than a reference to sinful flesh.

If the WORD is eternal, and the Word became flesh, then in the same way as Light overcame darkness, and Life overcame death, it was not possible that His Body (of flesh) could have been tainted with any sin whatever.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: [b]because it was not possible that he should be holden of it[/b].

 2006/3/24 8:43
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Dorcas,

If he wasn't a man just like us, how then can we follow his example. It would not be so amazing that he never sinned, if he wasn't inhabiting the same flesh as we do.

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/3/24 10:26Profile









 Re: flesh? what flesh?

That's a good question, Murdog.

Quote:
If he wasn't a man just like us, [b]how then can we follow his example[/b]. It would not be so amazing that he never sinned, if he wasn't inhabiting the same flesh as we do.

Here's the answer I believe. I believe God's logic is better than ours, (everytime, actually).

As I explained above, He could not have qualified to sacrifice [u]Himself[/u] for our sin, if there had been a sinful [u]nature[/u] in Him. [i]Automatically[/i], He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice to the Father.

This is a VITAL factor, in understanding from the Old Covenant, how important it was to God that the Lamb be perfect (unblemished in any way). It was [u]an abomination[/u] to offer a lamb which had anything wrong with it at all - sick, blind, lame...

[b]Malachi 1[/b]: O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer [u]polluted bread[/u] upon mine altar; [u]and ye say[/u], [b]Wherein have we polluted thee?[/b] In that [u]ye say, The table of [b]the LORD is contemptible[/b][/u]. 8 And if [u]ye offer the blind[/u] for sacrifice, [b]is it not evil?[/b] and [u]if ye offer the lame and sick[/u], [b]is it not evil?[/b] offer it now unto thy governor; [b]will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person?[/b] saith the LORD of hosts.


You may think it gave Him an easy ride, to have a Nature which was not sinful, but, I think we misunderstand some of what that meant to [i]Him[/i].

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be [i]touched with the feeling of our infirmities[/i]; but was in [u]all points[/u] [b]tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin[/b].

Recently, I began to notice the sort of things which upset Jesus. How angry was He allowed to get - and yet still not have [i]sinned[/i]? Well, He made, with His own hands, a 'scourge of small cords' to drive the merchants and animals out of the temple, because it had become a den of thieves instead of a house of prayer for all nations.

Luke 19:46
Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

But He wasn't shouting.

What else exasperated Him?

Matthew 6:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, [b]O ye of [u]little faith[/u][/b]?

Matthew 8:26
And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, [b]O ye of little faith[/b]? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matthew 16:8
[Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, [b]O ye of little faith[/b], why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke 9:41
And Jesus answering said, [b]O faith[u]less and perverse[/u] generation[/b], how long shall I be with you, [u]and [b]suffer[/b] you[/u]? Bring thy son hither.


I've raised these verses, because EDIT: I'm trying to say Jesus had His own problems with being the Word made Flesh.

I think there is a deep issue to address here. Exasperation is about having one's patience tried. There is a sense in which Jesus, (the Word made Flesh), was extended to His Human limit, by the condition in which He found the human race. Surely that made Him more determined to succeed in His mission to do the Father's will? Did He hate it here on earth with people - His OWN PEOPLE - who ALL THE TIME did not 'see' what He was after? Did He not LONG to deliver them from this bondage of darkness, eternal death and damnation?

Even after He was resurrected, and His disciples had been told of it, [i][b]they could not believe[/b][/i]. So, on what basis to we, as like humans with them, think we can work out how best to make a WAY of SALVATION for the WHOLE of MANKIND.... that is more acceptable [i][b]TO US?[/b][/i] Shouldn't we be grateful that God knew better, and receive the offering of His Son with complete adoration and thanksgiving, grateful that we are able to meet God's terms BY FAITH, and then .... we can follow His example because we have been made so CLEAN in God's sight, that [u]He can give us the Holy Spirit[/u] - which [u]makes[/u] us ABLE to follow His example.

This is why I'm frustrated that we don't seem to expect the same signs to follow our faith, as followed His. Why don't they?

 2006/3/24 12:13
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Dorcas,

So he was in the flesh, minus the sinful nature? Is that what you are saying?

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/3/24 15:48Profile









 Re: flesh? what flesh?

Quote:
So he was in the flesh, minus the sinful nature? Is that what you are saying?

Yes, murdog.... otherwise, He was not God.

 2006/3/24 20:00
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Hi Linn,

Would you care to explain 'sin nature' for us?

Communication is so difficult withou clear definitions.

Thanks.
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/24 20:59Profile









 Re: flesh? what flesh?

Hi Jeff,

Quote:
Would you care to explain 'sin nature' for us?

It is probably better if I leave it to Paul...

Try Romans 6, and give deep consderation to verse 6 'our old man', which is also mentioned in the context of putting on the 'new man' in other of his letters.

And, of the use of the word 'sin' rather than 'sins'. It appears that 'sin' has a life of its own. I believe philologos has expounded on this elsewhere, much more expertly, in the thread (in the Scritpure and Doctrine forum) called 'What is Sin?' The answers begin on page 1. Here's the link.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9369&forum=36&67]http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9369&forum=36&67[/url]


Returning to the original question 'flesh? what flesh?' it is important, I believe, to notice there is a difference between Adam being formed from the dust of the ground, and 'the Word was made Flesh' (John 1:14). God breathed into Adam, to make him a living soul (Gen 2:7) but Gabriel told Mary

Luke 1:35 ... [b]The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that [u]holy[/u] thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the [u]Son of God[/u][/b].

From a human point of view, I can see one can read almost all the scripture about sin and sins, as if Jesus had been born with 'sinful' flesh, but, taken in the context of 'the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world' (John 1:29, 36) and much more of scriptural truth, there is [i][b]no way[/b][/i] to keep a hold of that concept... Praise the Lord!

As I understand it, if the principle of sin was put to death by Jesus in His Flesh, when we receive the Holy Spirit through new birth (and/or the baptism in the Spirit - different discussion - good old threads to read on this distinction), regeneration begins to make the LIFE principle work in [u]our[/u] flesh, instead of DEATH.

THIS is the miracle of salvation, that we can have real deliverance from the [i]power[/i] of sin, in our lifetime and experience, by something beyond our control (as it were) and certainly not dependent on the whim of our 'willpower' (although of course, we have to will to do the will of God.... but); I mean, if we don't 'feel' like [i]not sinning[/i], something about regeneration makes it [u]a definite choice to sin[/u], in a way that didn't operate prior to regeneration, when it was 'natural' to sin.

 2006/3/25 9:43
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Luke 1:35 ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Is this not what happens when we are born again, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest overshadows us and the Holy Thing, Jesus Christ is born again in us and He is called the Son of God, and we are called son's of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit who is now given by the Father and He is no longer upon us or with us but IN us.

Hey Linn I like this; "I mean, if we don't 'feel' like not sinning, something about regeneration makes it a definite choice to sin, in a way that didn't operate prior to regeneration, when it was 'natural' to sin."
Now we can confess and God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Even before regeneration we knew it was wrong, but no big deal. Now we crave cleansing, feel bad when we sin. Yes! Dear sister.

Love ya, In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/26 20:17Profile





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