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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A pastor, husband of one wife?

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brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

We keep going round & round of sin or no sin??

Who here is without sin?? Who here knows any leader who abides by ALL the qualifications??

Who here abides by ALL scripture??

No one is bold enough here yet to take up 1Tim.2:9 or 1Peter 3:3. ITim.2:9 is BEFORE 1Tim.3:2 but we better make sure the leader is husband of one wife but his wife can have jewelry, make-up etc...or is that being a legalist?? Too strict?? ;-)


_________________
Brent

 2006/3/10 17:47Profile









 Re:

When we get old, we tend to repeat ourselves. ha.

I think I see too much being set in stone based solely on [b]personal experience(s).[/b]

I like how the Greek shows the "slavery" of 1Co 7:15, posted on page 6.

To abuse our freedom in Christ, to sin and break up a marriage AGAINST HIS WILL is to sin indeed, but this one sin is not worse than all the rest listed with adultery....

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 [u]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[/u] Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If we make "marriage" more than these above, then we are contrary to scripture and neglecting of other Scriptures ....

1Co 7:12 But to the rest [u]speak I, not the Lord[/u]: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage {slavery} in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

We're called to Liberty, but not to use our liberty as an occasion to the flesh nor to lean more toward the law.

One could take the verses above as an excuse to leave their wife or one can go the complete opposite extreme with the marriage verses and lose the balance and make marriage more than what these verses above combined, makes of marriage.

There is one other verse that I can't find, but in essence stated something like 'you who have a wife ... as living as though you don't have one'.

So Balance seems to be in order here and not putting our own fears of rejection ahead of the balance of the Scriptures.

 2006/3/10 17:48









 Re:

The Correct definition of "fornication" (Mat 5:32) from the Greek is ....

G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

G4202
πορνεία
porneia
Thayer Definition:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mar_10:11,Mar_10:12
2) metaphorically the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4203
Citing in TDNT: 6:579, 918


And is where we get our word "Pornography".

 2006/3/10 18:07
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
I firmly believe if someone was divorced before Christ then he is not bound by 1 Tim. 3:2. But if a christian got divorced and tried to be a pastor THEN the biblical guidelines apply!!

Let me throw in a twist...I believe if a christian divorces for any UNbiblical reason they are not chrisians any longer.



Didn't you say the above Brent? It seems strange to me that you say someone who gets divorced as a believer has lost their salvation (to me a VERY harsh stance which cannot be supported biblically), yet now you seem to have a whole different tone.....basically saying we shouldn't judge. I'm confused on your stance..... :-o In Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2006/3/10 18:16Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Thanks Lastblast and KingJimmy for your thoughtful responses to my questions. I read them, as well as the other posts thoughtfully myself.

Cindy, you rightly observed that I was speaking in contradictions. Yet it's worth noting this it is this contradiction that is being practiced all the time. Outward adherence is often preferred to inward authenticity, and that's okay in many of the churches I've been in. Marriage is just one of the areas where the law is set at odds with the Fruit of the Spirit. We may have great esteem for a life-long marriage, but it is not always the moral and spiritual achievement we make it out to be. Some marriages provide cultural, if not legal covering for adulterous and abusive behavior.

One sin doesn't justify another sin, but perhaps we could take a few moments to acknowledge the lonely life-long sacrifice that we are asking some people to make for our firm intepretation of scripture.

Quote:
Sure, lots of people "say" they are praying for their first spouses, but are they really willing to sacrifice their lives for their sakes?



It's perhaps nothing that Christ himself would not do for us...but the scope and length of such sacrifices should at least be understood. I dare imagine, that it's easier to die in an instant for Christ then to live through a life time of grief for the Church. At least it's more meaningful. We must console ourselves not to be distracted from our cause by those few tragic cases that can't be helped as we insist that justice triumph over mercy. There are casualities we are willing to live with for the greater good, as we unintentionally protect abusive behavior under the well-intentioned banner "God's Standard."

To be clear, I am not implying anyone who against remarriage is wanting divorcees to be hurt, or is indifferent to their hurts. I am implying that people who are against all remarriage are willing to accept, for the sake of their personal convictions, that some people will be hurt.

Discussions like this remind me how fortunate a man I am. My wife of 15 years is a profound joy who is very easy to be married to. I suppose I could feel good about that...but in reality it makes me feel unworthy of some brothers and sisters more noble then I, who have profound testimonies of the Lord bringing them through shocking and villanous treatment from their spouses.

Of course I realize the standard we are talking about is not concerned with my feelings, or sentimentality. I guess I'm just waxing foolishly here..it's a difficult thing to have to deny grace for the former sins of divorced people, while providing grace for the present sins of "married" people as long as they remain under the institional covering.

Marriage is quite a sacrament of grace!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/3/10 19:15Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: unequally yoked

Quote:
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away


It would seem that the scripture contradicts itself, because it also says, ‘Be not unequally yoked.” If at some point one spouse is saved and the other is not, they are living in sin in light of this verse. Why is the believing spouse then not encouraged to separate? Are their exception clauses to that command “be not unequally yoked” somewhere in Scripture?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/10 19:57Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Believe me Compton, I completely understand that even though a marriage may not have divorce in it, it surely can contain MUCH sin. The Lord surely desires to heal such marriages. I do think though there's something to be said for those who "stick it out" even though they may seem to have much more right to "chuck" their spouse aside. Why do such marriages stay together? I think some do out of fear of loneliness, fear of financial security, social rejection, etc.......all WRONG reasons to be sure. But there is something........some inner knowledge with most people that divorce is wrong. Many who are not saved cannot tell why, they just know it is. I believe because the Lord put it in us. Several people have told me when discussing the issue of divorce remarriage with unbelievers, the unbelievers have stated that they do believe it adultery to marry again after a divorce. It's interesting that the unsaved can see this, yet many in the church argue against it, minimize it, or deflect the topic off to another topic to avoid discussing it. It's quite puzzling to me really.

When George Barna did a poll on divorce within the confessing Christian community, it was interesting to note that divorce appears to be higher with confessed believers than with those who are professed atheists. To be perfectly honest, when I first read that, I was shocked. I can understand the divorce rate in the secular world rising and rising, but in the Christian community where we have the Lord's Word on the topic and "say" we are followers of His and walk in forgiveness towards others? I believe due to the growing numbers of divorced and remarrieds, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find men who fit the biblical requirements for leadership. That's why the standards are being lowered, but that's just my opinion. Thanks for the nice, respectful conversation Compton. It's alway a pleasure to read your posts, even when I disagree with you at times (not many):-) Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2006/3/10 20:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away


It would seem that the scripture contradicts itself, because it also says, ‘Be not unequally yoked.” If at some point one spouse is saved and the other is not, they are living in sin in light of this verse. Why is the believing spouse then not encouraged to separate? Are their exception clauses to that command “be not unequally yoked” somewhere in Scripture?

Diane




Having taken this from my post, I presume you may be addressing this question also to me.

The verses are self-explanatory and I don't feel I need to "add to the word of God".

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.


When I look at the page numbers above, I am immediately reminded as it shows 1 through 10 - that that is the general way in which most people judge on issues ... 1 being liberal and 10 being legalistic.

I see Jesus and Paul hitting harder on those near the "#10" group ... so I am trying very hard here to be compassionate more with the 10's then to give any time at all to those in the "#1" group; of slack and liberal folks, who have the nerve to call themselves Christians.

Those who at their own whim, decide that marriage is not sacred and can be tossed for adultery or divorce or separation whenever they fancy. That group I will not address, as the Word is clear enough on that.

But with those who come closer to the 10 ... I would have to say, be careful.

I also like to give folks, the benefit of the doubt, that some inward insecurity of sorts may be working through them, for them to risk going too hard toward that #10 category.

If one cares enough ... when it comes to bordering on legalism and going "beyond what is written" on any subject ... if one can, they should try to see what internal workings are causing this imbalance or Scriptural Imbalance.

I see Jesus and Paul getting very angry at the legalists and Paul having to write most of his books about them and Both could be rather sharp on those who use His Words to put extra weights on others without having the balanced scales of Mercy with their judgment. Also viewed in a possible scale of 1 to 10.

I don't want to be more merciful than Jesus or Paul was neither and lean toward psychology of 'why' we have people leaning too close to the 10s ... just as I don't want to use it for those "liberal 1s".

I feel that if I look at it purely from Scripture ... the 10s are self-righteous and dangerously lacking in mercy .... but if I look at it from a human perspective ... they are afraid of Losing Something.

Look at any particular legalistic stance and you may just see "the fear of loss".

Fear of rejection is also a big one in Fellowships and relationships.

So, I'm trying to be merciful .... and trying to factor all of the above into this equation.

 2006/3/10 20:58
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

kingjimmy,
You didnt answer the question...you just beat around the bush. Your strict with scripture so why not 1Tim.2:9 & 1Peter 3:3???? This is a yes or no answer...I'm not being a legalist am I?
Does your pastor wife abide by these scriptures??



I did answer the question. It was no dodge. If you want it more plain than I've already stated then I will state it more plainly: Yes, they do.

I fear this discussion is starting to become an run-away train where we are more interested in "gotcha's" than discovering and obeying the truth.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/3/10 22:06Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
I fear this discussion is starting to become an run-away train where we are more interested in "gotcha's" than discovering and obeying the truth.



kingjimmy,
My point was to say we could all find verses about other christians who have faults or sins.
Diane & meagain came out with the best post I believe...WE all fall short but its by grace we stand. We dont live by law but grace. We need to seek the face of God for revival-together! God bless you brother.
I'm done with this topic. 8-)


_________________
Brent

 2006/3/10 22:27Profile





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