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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A pastor, husband of one wife?

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 Re:

Quote:
Jbird...There is no bondage where there is none. An abusive situation is a bad one but no one is keeping them living in the same house!! It would be ignorant to stay in a corner and keeep getting beaten...

Hi brentw...... I think many women have went to their grave trying to run from their husband. My wife came from an abusive upbringing and at times I can be hard and say "Well, she should have just trusted God and prayed for him" but when your own husband is holding a gun to your head and beating you in front of the children and hording all the money so that you can't even purchase what is needed for the family, I can't find the heart to say "she was wrong", even if down deep in side I think she really should have stayed married to him. I ask myself, "would I stay?" and I can't quite answer, because I have not experienced anything like that. I just can't imagine God holding her accountable for that, and blotting her out of the book of life.

Can you give scripture for this?

 2006/3/9 23:10
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: some questions

Cindy said,

Quote:
Not so in the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul. Both taught that marriage is a permanent institution, intended from the beginning to be so, but divorce had been permitted for a time due to the hardheartedness of man. Paul clearly let men know that what God once "winked at" would no longer be tolerated.


So true! This is taught by one who demanded perfection, who also said: If you are angry at your brother you are guilty of murder, and if you look lustfully at a woman you .....
How do you work around that? Do you put that in a separate category?

I'm wondering why no one mentioned anything about the book of Hosea. Does it not fit in? ... Well, atually, it does NOT fit in to the Old covenant Law. It only applies to the New Covenant Law. Which covenant law should we be following?

Am I slow, or what, but as of yet, I have not seen one verse which commands that a divorced person cannot be a pastor or elder (or prophet, or appostle, or evangelist for that matter).

Regarding a person getting divorced BEFORE he got saved:
Where is there any mention of a waver for past sins committed before a person was saved, as opposed to after he was "saved."? Does not ALL sin require the same treatment: the blood.

Is one's disqualification for leadership a lingering judgment on past sin? Or is it because a divorced person could never lead well again because he "messed up" in the past, and would be a bad example?

Where in scripture do we see that God holds a person's PAST sins against him, or let those sins restrict His plan for their life - AFTER he made them a new creation?

The old has gone, the new has come".... What does that imply in this issue of divorce and church leadership?
Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/9 23:21Profile
lastblast
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Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
He who confess and forsakes finds mercy. A homosexual was never married theres no such thing as a gay marriage!



Homosexual marriage IS legal in some states already and in a few countries around the world. Does God acknowledge it as a "lawful" marriage in His sight? No, I don't believe so. However, many will say that because our secular government approves of "legalizes" marriages contracted after a divorce, then God approves of those as well. That is where we need to go to the Word of God for clarification. The only word we have is that of our Lord and Paul declaring that any marriage that takes place after a divorce is adultery. We also have the word that the bond of marriage endures until the death of one of the spouses---neither divorce, nor adultery, nor remarriage will break/dissolve that original marriage bond. In Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/10 0:02Profile
lastblast
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Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
So true! This is taught by one who demanded perfection, who also said: If you are angry at your brother you are guilty of murder, and if you look lustfully at a woman you .....



Exactly.......I do believe that ALL NT teachings apply to us. We are called as believers to crucify those areas of sin as they are revealed to us.

Concerning the divorced, as I said, that is really not so much the issue as a remarriage is. For those of us who see the original marriage bond as still in tact, we cannot see how someone who is guilty of adultery---as defined by the Lord, not us---can serve in a leadership position or any position within the church for that matter. I am very much in line with the doctrinal statements TonyS posted, believing them to align with the Lord's standards according to His Word and the heart behind the Word. in Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/10 0:11Profile
TonyS
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Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

I suspect very soon, if it is not already happening there will be countless lawsuits making there way through the court systems filed by single and married homosexuals who are being rejected from acceptance in leadership roles in Evangelical Fundamentalists Churches.

As there always is, there will be eager sympathetic attorneys willing and ready to take these cases, and one of the arguments for these cases will be the apparent hypocrisy of some Churches that have placed adulterers into leadership positions, Pastors, Elders, Deacons, Teachers etc…. Placement, Ordination and recognition that even fifty years ago would have never happened.

There will be those who will claim this to be an attack from satan upon the Church, but I believe the Church will find itself fighting God. When Scripture is reinterpreted to fit with Christian Pop Culture, in order to be more accommodating to the “seeker”, yes I believe the Church finds itself fighting against God

And make no mistake, the funds to defend itself in Court will come out of our pockets from the tithes and offerings. Church finances used for out of court settlements, skyrocketing insurance premiums, attorney fees, punitive damages.

This whole mess is coming full circle, and it is coming with fury.

Jeremiah 6:16
16 [i]Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, [u]We will not walk therein[/u][/i]

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/10 0:57Profile









 Re: Elders, Deacons, Pastors.

We as members may be split on this, but who are we compared to some of our greatest expositors ?

If they can disagree amongst themselves on this and other teachings ... should we carve our own thoughts in stone just yet ?


For example, just a few here ....

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Vincent's Word Studies:
1Co 7:15 -
Is not under bondage (οὐ δεδούλωται)
A strong word, indicating that Christianity has not made marriage a state of slavery to believers. Compare δέδεται is bound, 1Co_7:39, a milder word. The meaning clearly is that willful desertion on the part of the unbelieving husband or wife sets the other party free. Such cases are not comprehended in Christ's words.
Hath called us to peace (ἐν εἰρήνη κέκληκεν ἡμᾶς)
Rev., correctly, in peace. Compare Gal_1:6, “into the grace” (ἐν χάριτι, Rev., in); Eph_4:4, in one hope (ἐν μιᾷ ἐλπίδι); 1Th_4:7, in sanctification (ἐν ἁγιασμῷ). Denoting the sphere or element of the divine calling. Enslavement in the marriage relation between the believer and the unbeliever is contrary to the spirit and intent of this calling.

John Gill:
a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. The Ethiopic version reads it, "to such an one"; one that is called by grace a church member, and so a brother or sister in Christ, is not to be subject to an unbeliever in matters of conscience, in things appertaining to the worship of God, and the service and glory of Christ; nor, being in such circumstances, that either Christ must be forsaken, or the unbeliever will depart, are they obliged to yield to such an one, but rather suffer a departure; nor are they bound to remain unmarried, but are free to marry another person, after all proper methods have been tried for a reconciliation, and that appears to be impracticable; desertion in such a case, and attended with such circumstances, is a breach of the marriage contract, and a dissolution of the bond, and the deserted person may lawfully marry again; otherwise a brother, or a sister in such a case, would be in subjection and bondage to such a person.

Matthew Henry:1Co 7:15 -
But, though a believing wife or husband should not separate from an unbelieving mate, yet if the unbelieving relative desert the believer, and no means can reconcile to a cohabitation, in such a case a brother or sister is not in bondage (1Co_7:15), not tied up to the unreasonable humour, and bound servilely to follow or cleave to the malicious deserter, or not bound to live unmarried after all proper means for reconciliation have been tried, at least of the deserter contract another marriage or be guilty of adultery, which was a very easy supposition, because a very common instance among the heathen inhabitants of Corinth. In such a case the deserted person must be free to marry again, and it is granted on all hands. And some think that such a malicious desertion is as much a dissolution of the marriage-covenant as death itself. For how is it possible that the two shall be one flesh when the one is maliciously bent to part from or put away the other? Indeed, the deserter seems still bound by the matrimonial contract; and therefore the apostle says (1Co_7:11), If the woman depart from her husband upon the account of his infidelity, let her remain unmarried. But the deserted party seems to be left more at liberty (I mean supposing all the proper means have been used to reclaim the deserter, and other circumstances make it necessary) to marry another person. It does not seem reasonable that they should be still bound, when it is rendered impossible to perform conjugal duties or enjoy conjugal comforts, through the mere fault of their mate: in such a case marriage would be a state of servitude indeed.

A.T. Robertson:
Is not under bondage (ou dedoulōtai). Perfect passive indicative of douloō, to enslave, has been enslaved, does not remain a slave. The believing husband or wife is not at liberty to separate, unless the disbeliever or pagan insists on it. Wilful desertion of the unbeliever sets the other free, a case not contemplated in Christ’s words in Mat_5:32; Mat_19:9. Luther argued that the Christian partner, thus released, may marry again. But that is by no means clear, [u]unless the unbeliever marries first.[/u]

1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Wesley:
1Ti 3:2 - Therefore - That he may be capable of it. A bishop - Or pastor of a congregation. Must be blameless - Without fault or just suspicion. The husband of one wife - This neither means that a bishop must be married, nor that he may not marry a second wife; which it is just as lawful for him to do as to marry a first, and may in some cases be his bounden duty. But whereas polygamy and divorce on slight occasions were common both among the Jews and heathens, it teaches us that ministers, of all others, ought to stand clear of those sins. Vigilant, prudent - Lively and zealous, yet calm and wise. Of good behaviour - Naturally flowing from that vigilance and prudence.

Vincent's Word Studies:
The opposition to second marriage became very strong in the latter part of the second century. It was elevated into an article of faith by the Montanists, and was emphasized by Tertullian, and by Athenagoras, who called second marriage “a specious adultery” (εὐπρεπής μοιχεία)

A.T. Robertson's
Of one wife (mias gunaikos). One at a time, clearly.



Of Denominations: Most all except Annulments for Pastors or for the Pastor's potential wife.
AoG and most all else.

 2006/3/10 2:49









 Re:

Quote:
I suspect very soon, if it is not already happening there will be countless lawsuits making there way through the court systems filed by single and married homosexuals who are being rejected from acceptance in leadership roles in Evangelical Fundamentalists Churches.



It's already happening, and has been for some time. But I will tell ya what... they can throw me in jail. When the Bible and Biblical Commands are outlawed, I'll be an outlaw. I will not compromise my stand for the Word of God for anyone... including Uncle Sam.

Here's how I look at these issues... divorced pastors, women pastors... I'd rather err in being too conservative than too liberal when it comes to God's Word.

Krispy

 2006/3/10 6:24
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: pastor troubles

Quote:
An abusive situation is a bad one but no one is keeping them living in the same house!! It would be ignorant to stay in a corner and keep getting beaten...


It is easy to say this. But you have to look a bit deeper. It is NOT easy to just walk away from your only source of security, especially when you have been weakened already emotionally through constant put downs, threats etc. I know a lady in such a situation who was so bashed for so long that she just curled up in a corner. Thankfully her family found her and took her out of the situation. She is now divorced and the director of a mission –full of the radiance of Christ. She is a role model to me – a picture of the power of God to heal.

It is good to comb the Bible for all of the laws and be zealous for God’s righteous standards. The problem is, because of our blind spots, we miss a lot of laws that apply to us regarding our response to sinners. Also we end up stuck in legal thinking as is the case here:
Quote:
We also have the word that the bond of marriage endures until the death of one of the spouses---neither divorce, nor adultery, nor remarriage will break/dissolve that original marriage bond


How does one conduct their relationships with “sinners” when one does not move from the ideal perfect standard of righteousness to what is REALITY. How does one treat someone who has never “cut off their right hand” (in their opinion). How does one treat remarried divorcees if one views them as living in sin? Does one refuse to allow them into their homes? What about looking for FRUIT in their PRESENT lives, as we are called to do? Is one able to do that?

The Old Testament (and NT) gives many strong rebukes to spiritual leaders. Let’s face it, they messed up badly. And it is no different today. Do we stay stuck there? Thankfully God did not stay stuck there. He gave us hope, and a way to move on. Why do we so often get stuck in the legal matters and fail to move on and apply God’s wonderful solutions? We are called to be instruments of mercy, and would do far better for the kingdom of God if we bring out our bandages and medicines and help those who are damaged by the effects of sin in our society.

I once read a statistical report about pastors: They exhibit a high percentage of troubles –messed up kids, financial problems, illness, marital tensions, burnout…disillusionment . In fact, the report troubled me so much that I felt ill after reading it. I suspect that these symptoms are natural consequences of our fallen society, and also symptoms of the churches failure to apply Scripture properly. Call it divine judgment, if you will. Here’s one possible reason; the very role of the pastor as we practice it, is not Biblical, so if shouldn’t surprise us that it can’t work in the long run. It is a set up for failure. It also contributes to this all-to-common problem:
Quote:
… many pastors become controlling, and lord over their families in an attempt to keep them under submission so they remain 'biblical' in the eyes of the church. If a man can't rule their house in love than they will probably miss the whole meaning of ministry also…



Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/10 6:29Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
It is good to comb the Bible for all of the laws and be zealous for God’s righteous standards. The problem is, because of our blind spots, we miss a lot of laws that apply to us regarding our response to sinners. Also we end up stuck in legal thinking as is the case here:



Diane, we are speaking about those who call themselves "brethren" and desire to be in Church leadership. Are you saying that the standards of God should be lowered? When those words were spoken (with heart and purpose behind those words), was is spoken to us as just "good advice" or are those things what the Lord EXPECTS us to uphold?

Quote:
How does one conduct their relationships with “sinners” when one does not move from the ideal perfect standard of righteousness to what is REALITY. How does one treat someone who has never “cut off their right hand” (in their opinion). How does one treat remarried divorcees if one views them as living in sin? Does one refuse to allow them into their homes? What about looking for FRUIT in their PRESENT lives, as we are called to do? Is one able to do that?



Again, it seems to me that you are minimizing what God has declared and are using CIRCUMSTANCE and REALITY to determine what a believer should do. Are we not to be guided by the Word of God in our everyday actions and interactions---forgiving others(the "nice" commands) as well as rebuking some (the "hard" commands)? We are called not to judge the OUTWARD appearance, but to judge righteous judgment. To me, that means I cannot base what is right on what I see in the person's personality, acts of service, etc, but by what the Word of God states is right. I see the "blessings" of God upon the unsaved.......does that lead me to believe that they are living right? Of course not.

I posted an article here quite a long time ago written by a Pastor in the Episcopal church. In that article he spoke of how the church used not to marry ANYONE who was divorced......Now that has changed. He says He has married MANY divorced couples himself. He then asks the question: "What Changed? Did the Word of God change? No, culture changed and we changed along with it." He believes the change was "loving" and due to the fact they grew in understanding of God's Grace.

The point of that article was that he was making a comparision between adultery (remarriages)vs homosexuality---- speaking on how he believes the church will someday embrace homosexual couples into the church----actively serving within those bodies, just as they have accepted remarried people who were once considered adulterers. I disagree that the "church" should EVER lower the standards of God to "fit" the current culture or "reality". Must we LOVE those who fall in those areas? Yes, but we must call them from their sin, not allow them to remain comfortable in it. Loving them THROUGH the stages of repentance WOULD be bringing healing.....but I don't see that happening in much of the church. Either they "cast out" without a heart of restoration, or in the other extreme, they allow every manner of sin to remain "within the camp".........believing themselves to be "loving".

Here's the article if you're interested in reading it: http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/assay49.html

Blessings in Jesus, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/10 9:20Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
When a "married" homosexual comes to Christ, would it be ok with the Lord, if he confessed his sinfulness, yet stayed in his "unbiblical" marriage?



I've not seen anywhere in scripture that says that a homo can marry someone of the same sex or that God recongnizes it as such. I do see male-female relationships that are called marriage, even after the first marriage.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/3/10 10:50Profile





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