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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A pastor, husband of one wife?

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brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

I just cant stay away! :-P

Heres a thought about qualifications for elder...
What about the not so good marriages of some giants in the past? Were they disqualified and it seems God well used them?

Who am I talking about? What about Wesley & Tozer? Tozer, you ask?...O yes Tozer. When Tozer passed over his wife remarried and said after she was remarried 'I now have a real husband'. :-o
Wesley as we know had huge problems with his wife...Did he rule his home well?? He was off traveling the country while there was bitterness in the home?? I'm just making a point of course.
Just some thoughts to chew on :-)

And by the way we can name other giants of the past.


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Brent

 2006/3/17 13:03Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Where are all the godly examples?


Quote:
Perhaps there is a symbolic issue here too. The Lamb will only ever have one Bride

God has put all kinds of prophetic pitures right into our lives - woven right in, and marriage is one. We are called to bear that image. That is God's picture.

Quote:
here's a thought... make better decisions based on much prayer when you marry... and then don’t get divorced...


Krispy, I nominate this the quote of the day! This is indeed the best answer yet. Unfortunately spiritual maturity is not genetic. People don’t inherit genes for good marriages. Most young folk are not seasoned enough in their spiritual journey to have learned to rely on prayer, or hear God’s answer. They mostly hear the voices on their minds (and EMOTIONS), culture, upbringing….

I have the solution: The PARENTS should pick the spouses. After all, the parents have tons more maturity and insight than their offspring. Now, the next challenge is: How do we implement this? The closest I have heard of this in the Christian community is Bill Gothard. He did not believe in dating, and he believed that the parents should be consented and be considered the authorities in these matters. I think he has some valid, excellent teachings about marriage.

The only thing about Gothard, is that apparently wherever his seminars have been, there is a higher incidence of divorce. Perhaps that is the danger of presenting very high standards – that just can’t be met in real life. The pressure rises… and snap!


Quote:
And by the way we can name other giants of the past.


What about the Bible itself? Why didn’t God put more ideal characters in it to be our examples. Just look at Hebrews 11 – the great heroes of the faith: Rahab…. Samson…. (Hit myself on the head!!!) Why didn’t God just let such characters fade into history (as part of an OLD dispensation) . No, he click, dragged, and dropped them right into the New Testament!

Think of all the Old Testament heroes who had more than one wife (which apparently God did not approve of) Think of Jacob – and his 12 children– born to four wives ….. What about Moses, two wives ... our greatest hero. What about …Abraham (Hagar). … Ab was the prototype of faith - our model. Where are all the ideal leaders with clean lives to model….?

That’s just maybe exactly the point! God is about mercy – about using the fallenness of man as a backdrop against his Gospel of grace. If he did it for 4000 yrs of Bible history, why can’t he now?

It’s all about God, about Christ, about the Good News, and NOT about man. And that is what those outside the church need to see – what God can do for them.

Man HAS marred God's perfect picture: marriage, and then God comes along and says: You messed up, now you can't fix it. But I will fix it. Just watch!

And Hosea goes back and gets his prostitue wife!

Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/17 15:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And while I'm here, you really are saying, are you, that all this is investigated before a man is invited to offer himself for eldership.... no matter what kind of good character he has demonstrated over his years as a Christian?


Did I say that? :-o


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Ron Bailey

 2006/3/17 16:34Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: how far can Christ restore a divorcee?

Quote:
I can see nothing but hypocrisy now----especially when I see big named ministries fighting so hard against homosexuality, yet remaining deafeningly quiet on the issue of church sanctioned adultery.

I agree with this Annie. There is a tendency to shout against the sins outside of the church and ignore the ones inside the church. Adultery, ie infidelity, is very common and is destroying the church. I’m just not prepared to refer to every legal remarriage as “church sanctioned adultery”, because I really don’t see Christ, or Paul say that explicitly. It is a deduction.

Quote:
The "world" is watching us......watching to see if what we speak lines up with what we do. Blessings in Him, Cindy



Yes and no. Certainly they see our hypocrisy better than us. But the world also sees the church as laying a lot of guilt trips on people.

Here is an example of someone from the world coming into the church:
A recently divorced man has lost everything that was ever dear to him, all that he ever lived for – for the past 20 years. His life is ripped apart. This is worse than death. His ex-wife has decimated any sense of self- left him, and taken his kids. He now knows that he is an unfit father and husband.

Now he craves for solace somewhere. So he comes to the church. He meets all kinds of happy couples. However, seeing them only intensifies his pain and reminds him of his shattered dreams. How he would have liked to be like them. He feels lonely, an outsider.

At church he learns that God loves him and forgives any sin. That’s very comforting for him. He wants Christ to restore his life. But he also hears about the wrongs of divorce. What’s he supposed to do now? He can’t go back. His ex-wife has found another man. Yet, she is technically his wife. According to scripture he should be loving her like a good husband. But how can he care for her? He can’t go back, yet the church is telling him she is still his wife. So, he is sinning by not loving his wife, now “falsely” referred as his ex-wife. Divorce is sin, yet how can he repent. It’s not possible.

Here is another dilemma he finds himself in. Clearly everything at church is for couples. (well, that’s the way lonely singles see it) He is the only single male there, and feels somewhat left out. There are plenty single girls. But he finds out that he can never marry again because he apparently still has a wife. So really, he can’t date them. That would be like a cruel tease.

Later..... after much time of healing and restoration... he realizes.... that now he can fully give his life to God and serve him. He is free to go to Bible College.... study the Word, pray... minister to the needy....

Annie, How can we, the church, help him and countless like him, have a clean conscious and the peace and joy of the Lord – which Christ promised?

How far can Christ restore him - if never into a place of oficial spiritual leadership?

What about non-official leadership - perhaps by example through a victorious life.
Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/17 17:37Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
Cindy, I asked you earlier in the thread to answer this question on the basis of the following verse, and I don't think you have done so far.



Sorry Dorcas, I must have missed that. So many posts on this topic. Anyways, I appreciate that you are willing to actually disect the scriptures and discuss their meaning. I know you and I differ on this issue, but I appreciate your desire to at least dialogue a bit deeper than many do on this---especially since this personally affects you.


Quote:
Matthew 19:9 Jesus speaking:And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another, except it be for fornication [porneia], committeth adultery:..

A man whose spouse committed porneia can divorce her and remarry. This is what Matt 19:9 says... yes?



There are varying ideas on what the exact meaning of Mt. 19:9 is. What we do know is that it is the ONLY exception ever mentioned in NT teachings on divorce/remarriage........and we know that this was written to a Jewish audience who had binding betrothals. The other two gospels (Mk. 10, Lk. 16), which give NO exception for divorce, was spoken to Gentile believers (Greeks and Romans). They had no such binding betrothal custom.

Personally, I lean towards the opinion that the "porneia" has to do with fornication PRIOR to the marriage bed as we see in Mt. 1:18-24. Joseph thought to put Mary away BEFORE she even left her father's house to become His wife. She was called his wife prior to that betrothal custom), but she had not left her parents yet and had not been joined to him. In a case where the man did not want to marry his betrothed, a certificate of divorce needed to be given, because lawfully, though the "marriage" had not yet been consummated, they were husband and wife.

There's another thing I have pondered lately too and that's that Jesus only allowed for UNLAWFUL marriages to be fosaken: adulterous, incestuous, homosexual, etc----all those marriages which God does NOT join.

In either case, I do not believe that Jesus was allowing for divorce AND remarriage due to unrepentant adultery by a LAWFUL spouse. The reason I don't believe this has to do with what Paul teaches in Rom. 7:2-3 and I Cor. 7:39.

In Rom. 7:2-3, Paul SPECIFICALLY uses not a model marriage(life long partners) and how THAT type of marriage is dissolved as the analogy of Christ and the law, but Paul uses the example of a woman who commits adultery by getting remarried. He calls her an adulteress. He tells how she will not be free to marry another until/unless her husband dies. Never is there any indication Paul believed marriage is ever dissolved outside of the death of a lawful spouse. For those who say that a new vow replaces and old vow, or that adultery dissolves the marriage, how do they answer what Paul taught there? Notice also in that passage, nowhere does Paul say that if the 'innocent' husband divorces his guilty wife, THEN the marriage is dissolved. He maintains that death dissolves a marriage.

Quote:
So, the question is, if a man has remarried, (and also under Old Covenant law it was an abomination for him to go back to his first wife after divorcing a second wife), how can either he or his ex (first) wife return to their 'marriage'



Yes, it was an abomination, because he put her away for uncleanness and then to want her back after she had been with another man? What a horrific handling of the marriage covenant. As for NT teachings on this, Jesus said to remarry is to commit adultery. To commit adultery means to take to yourself what does not belong to you. Does being really sorry about stealing something, then make it mine?

If we want to keep it in the terms of adultery, do you believe if someone commits adultery (extramarital), then they can never reunite with their marriage partner? Isn't adultery able to be forsaken and the covenant marriage partners reconciled? NT teachings on remarriage after divorce speak of such as adultery. We do not find that in the OT. There was no forsaking of adultery---there was DEATH---which freed the "innocent" parties to get married again. Also, in the OT, if there was a divorce, the divorced (both parties) WERE free to remarry. None were considered adulterers for contracting second marriages. Not so in the NT. Jesus said AFTER a divorce, adultery takes place should someone marry again. So we see that the divorce does NOT dissolve the marriage. If divorce does not dissolve, then the parties are still married to each other and whatever vows they make to others are null and void to the Lord because their previous vows are still in force (unless one believes polygamy ok, which I still believe conflicts with NT teachings on marriage). Hope I answered your questions. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/17 17:48Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.I believe it is God’s only scriptural provision for an impossible marriage situation, such as physical violence, etc…. when perhaps for a time a spouse would separate. But in no way gives "permission" to go on to another marriage.



Tony, I am in complete agreement. To die to self and live for Him is a tough, tough walk, but with the Lord all things are possible.......and having brothers and sisters who will uplift us when things get tough or tempting is a MUST to keep our eyes fixed upon the Lord and His purposes for us-----to His Glory!! Blessings brother. In Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/17 18:01Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Christ's holy standards

Cindy, I am reading your comments - lots of very good thoughts. These words especially grabbed my attention:

Quote:
Yes, it was an abomination, because he put her away for uncleanness and then to want her back after she had been with another man? What a horrific handling of the marriage covenant



I believe that the Old Covenant Law is not something to brush away behind looser standards. Each aspect of the law forshadows a very important spirutal picture - of God and his people. To parallel your words, I'd say: What a horrible handling of the New Covenant: For us to commit spiritual adultery with the world, and then expect our pure and holy God to take us back in our filthy state is really an abomination. We are kidding ourselves if we assume that he just turns a blind eye. He is holy and cannot look on any unholiness!

Jesus never lowered any standards. In fat, he raised the bar: ex lust=adultery, cut off hand if it causes you to sin, God wants all your posessions not just ten percent, pray without ceasing.... and on it goes - INCLUDING the standards for marriage. A man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church!!! Wow!!! What a very high standard. And who could do that?? Certainly only a very spiritually mature man who has been walking very closely with Christ and transformed by God. That is rare to see.

Now, who are Christ's standards for: It is for those who have been born from above and are living by the power of the Spirit, not the flesh, for without Christ's power, without faith we cannot please God. In fact anything done in the flesh is filthy rags. Whatever is not of faith is sin!!!

So, from reading God's standards in the Bible, I'd have to say that God is not the least bit impressed with ANYTHING a worldly-minded person does - including choose their marriage partner (we shouldn't be surprised we see so many marriages fall apart then, should we - the marriages were not built on the foundation of Christ ). Except God build the house, the laborers labor in vain.

So who are God's New Testament standards meant for? - certainly not the worldly person, because even if worldly persons tried to obey those standards, the are still abominable defiled adulterers, prostitutes (to borrow OT word)

Now, I'd have to say that in these days, people carry a lot of baggage into their marriages - that play havoc with their relationship.

There are very very few spirit filled people around who have fully committed their lives to God and are able or willing to follow Christ's will. If they were, we might see more single workers for the kingdom.

So. now what????
Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/17 22:51Profile
ChristianS
Member



Joined: 2006/3/18
Posts: 1


 Re:

At the risk of being stoned I would like to add something to this discussion. God hates divorce we know that the Bible tells us so. Most of us hate divorce also. I wonder though if there is a time for divorce. You know a time for every season. What am I talking about? Please read the last few chapters of Ezra. There are plenty of divorces going on there, and dare I say it is the right thing for them to do in God's eyes. Now read the next book in the Bible Nehemiah. Some of those leaders names sound familiar? Any comments, and please don't say well they were Jews who did what they weren't suppose to do in the first place. Christians also do what they weren't suppose to do.

 2006/3/18 2:16Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
There are very very few spirit filled people around who have fully committed their lives to God and are able or willing to follow Christ's will. If they were, we might see more single workers for the kingdom.
So. now what????



There needs to be a REVOLUTION in the churches Diane----otherwise, nothing will change, except that more and more sin will be allowed in the camp and we will become more and more desensitized to evil works of the flesh. If we SEE sin in our camps, it needs to be dealt with---that dealing with includes not only a change of mind towards that sin, but forsaking those sins we are guilty of---as that is the "fruit" of repentance.

In Ezra 9-10, there was a GREAT revolution. God's judgment was upon that nation because they had forsaken HIS commandments. Notice that His favor was not restored with confession of sorrow at having departed from HIS ways........it took ACTION on their parts to restore a right relationship with the Lord.

Read Mal. 2:6-17. There are many different things to point out in that passage, but take particular notice of verse 13----sorrow, weeping, etc do not satisfy the Lord. He rejects such. Yet, today, this is being taught in the churches as true repentance. Notice in verse 14 the wife of his youth IS the wife of covenant, not was........so now what. See in todays' church, it is taught that "ok, you did commit adultery when you remarried (many churches will admit this), now you need to acknowledge this to the Lord and from this point on, live for Him----treat this NEW wife as a covenant wife".......Is that what people take away from Mal. 2 as what will then satisfy the Lord and allow our "offerings" to be acceptable to Him?

Today, many in the churches are being taught and have examples set for them that they can disobey the commands of God and STILL get to keep the "fruit" of disobedience if they only are "sorry"........but they are not consistant in this teaching. Again, inconsistant application and hypocrisy rears it's head. If we steal something from work, confess it to our brethren........the counsel would be to return it. When we take someone else's wife or husband (adultery, in the Lord's sight), we say we can "keep" that which is STILL NOT OURS because we said "sorry". Why is the church using different weights and measures concerning sin and the application of true repentance? We know what the Lord says about such practices..........

There are many who are saying "do not judge", yet in I Cor. 5 we ARE told to judge WITHIN the camp. There are many who are saying "The Lord Jesus' Blood covers me if I am in adultery".......yet the Lord says, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in rememberance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not".......Jude verses 4-5.

And this: "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols, and I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not, Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. and I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he that searches the reins and hearts; and I will give unto every one of YOU according to your works..Rev. 2:19-23.

and this: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication that every one of your should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour, not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God; That no man go beyond and DEFRAUD his brother in ANY manner; because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

How many in the "church" today are defrauding their brothers/sisters? Many are taking each others husbands and wives as their own.

If I have spoken falsely, may the Lord correct me and show me truth. But if I have spoken truly and in the Will of the Lord, may He open the eyes of the blind and help all of us to walk in accordance to His will for HIS glory. Amen.

Blessings in Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/18 9:32Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Ezra and Nehemiah

Quote:
There are plenty of divorces going on there, and dare I say it is the right thing for them to do in God's eyes


Thank you, ChristianS for coming on board and throwing some more fuel into the fire. You certainly got me thinking.

As I read these passages, I see a higher law in consideration: these people were threatening their entire nation by marrying pagans, They were disobeying the law of fidelity to GOD. Here divorce was an act of repentance.

I must admit, I do have a hard time with Nehimiah's leadership style - calling down curses, beating them up and pulling out hair. I hope no one takes him as an ideal role model. And then Nehimiah had the nerve to close the book with "Remember me with favor, O my God." (!!!)

Certainly this Biblical account is not a model to follow re divorce, nor leadership.


The spirit of this whole "restoration of the remnant" event, seems to be: God is jealous for his people. They are not to be unequally yoked with the world. He wants undivided loyalty at all cost.

Some other stray thoughts:
What God has joined let no man separate. No man - but does God ever separate unions in which one of his children is being constantly defiled?

Frankly, I don't think God initiates most unions I see (as explained earlier). They are the work of the flesh. So are most of the divorces that inevitably ensue for at least fifty percent of those unions.


How I praise God that he cares for his own children. We don't have a distant God who merely shouts down laws from heaven, but one who walks among his own, orchestrates life circumstances, refines them, and leads them to their final destiny in heaven - union with him, their eternal husband.
diane


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Diane

 2006/3/18 9:49Profile





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