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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A pastor, husband of one wife?

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TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

To Diane and Dorcas,


Romans 5:5
[i]And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.[/i]

Ezekiel 11:19
[i]And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:[/i]

I know of no other answer to the sin problem than this.

And I too hold to a permanency of marriage type belief as you might know, but my question to you is this: holding to this view or any other view for that matter where there is disagreement, and beyond asking God that I might speak and write from a place of brokenness, how does one listen to God, speak as you believe He would have you speak and yet all the while try and avoid bringing condemnation down upon those who may have already suffered so much? It seems this topic is particularly hard to discuss and still juggle all this I have mentioned.

I am well aware I can present what I determine to be sound doctrine but with a wrong Spirit, as I can present false doctrine yet with a right spirit. Sound doctrine with a gentle, teachable Spirit now that is what I desire.

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/11 14:10Profile









 Re: Pastor, the husband of one wife?

Tony,

Because of the picture of marriage in the Godhead - perfect love - and of the Bride of Christ for whom He died, [u]I have no doubt that one lifelong partner is the ideal[/u]. And many, both Christians and non-Christians not only aspire to it and achieve it.

Here's a quote:

Quote:
It seems strange how the instituion of marriage [u]changes the nature of people's [b]sins[/b][/u]....[b]single people can[/b] do some things that married people can't and [b]be forgiven. Yet on the other hand, married people.... can live out abusive behavior, and enjoy relative protection from the church[/b] against their [u]spouses'[/u] better interest.

This is what this discussion has become about. We have got stuck on the question of why marriages end and whether it is ever ok to marry again.

What we have barely touched on, is that many in leadership positions who have committed sexual sin, and [i]because it's their livelihood[/i] have been allowed to step down [u]for a season only[/u], and are later re-instated to positions of authority in the church - [i]despite this past sin which is held against so many others who are not seeking leadership, or, when they do, it comes up as a disqualifying factor[/i].

The hypocrisy of this, the hypocrisy of double standards, the legalism of it all, which seems to deny the power of God to cleanse, is one of the most upsetting factors, to me.

That there seems to be no latitude for a person to realise they are 'married' to the wrong person, and to admit they are wrong, to get out, to marry the 'right' person, without this becoming an unforgivable sin in some people's eyes. It stinks..... not the mistake the first person made, but the misery some Christians think they are entitled to pour on people who are already living in a most unhappy situation.

For all Jesus' condemnation of sin, and hypocrisy, I don't find Him being anything other than critical of those who lay burdens on others, especially in the light of Matthew 11:28 - 30.

Marriage can only be permanent AND MEANINGFUL when BOTH people feel the same way about it. Otherwise, one of them is lying. And my reading of Revelation 22:15 makes that as serious as adultery, in eternal terms.

I think we forget that we are made in God's image, sometimes, and the attractivity between men and women is there not just to produce children, but to produce healthy marriages. If this bit of the equation falls apart, then I believe God knows men and women will find it hard not to gravitate towards another partner, if there can be one.... unless they feel called to celibacy.

All this is to say that 1 Cor 7 is about [i]continence[/i], primarily, because that's what glorifies God. The matter of temperance is for each individual who knows the Lord, yet Paul still [i]recommends[/i] marriage, for the avoidance of fornication (v 2). I don't think that applies only to people who have never been married before.

 2006/3/11 16:06
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Tony

I identify with the challenge that you express (I think) I see God’s holy righteous standards, which include marital fidelity and permanence.

However I also see man’s utter failure to maintain ANY godly standard. I feel so helpless. I think of a friend who is 350 pounds. To tell her that she is fat because she is eating wrong, or to remind her that she is soon to experience horrible health problems seems to be unhelpful. She knows it all too well, and that reality is so painful for her and scary that she pushes it aside, hiding behind denial. Her conscience remains under condemnation because she won’t accept God’s mercy for stuff in her past. (She can’t face it)

It is no different with social problems. Putting billboards up about the wrongs of abortion or drunk driving just doesn’t solve the problem. If anything it encourages violators to further harden their conscience so that they don’t feel the guilt.

When Jesus stood up in the temple to announce his messiahship, he quoted the OT: “I have come to set the captives free, to heal, etc. He did not read the Ten Commandments. And when he performed miracles in people’s lives he did not first give a lecture about law. He seemed to avoid the “condemnation” stage. So why can’t we do what he did? Why are his way so unreasonable to us? They certainly are not too difficult. If fact, it is we who make the path too difficult by laying on people yokes that they can’t bear, and then not knowing how to lift the yokes off them, or even believing that those very yokes are just what they need.

And that is where I squawk. It is not a squabble over the law (other than laws added to God’s law), but the issue of presenting the solution to sinners. It is a case of ignoring God’s higher laws ( love, ex Good Samaritan, Prodigal Son) which point the way to salvation. And, having said that, I would be quick to say that I believe that I have failed far more than I can ever realize.

I wonder if I'm thinking right, but it seems that nothing violates God's righteous standards more than the Good News. The Good Samaritan was NOT good. The Prdigal son should never have been FULLY reinstated, Matthew the tax collector should never have been one chosen to write holy scritpure.

And what about Paul - we have grown accustomed to his calling, but think how ludicrous it really is - we should be shocked!

And so about remarriage after divorce... well, why should we not accept that? A new partner could very well be an expression of God's mercy.
If God gives his Spirit to those he forgives, then should we not trust the Spirit to help one obey God.

I fear I have said nothing new here, or I am not really tracking with your question, Tony. Let me know.

Diane






_________________
Diane

 2006/3/11 16:57Profile









 Re: Pastor, husband of one wife?


Tony, I've been forgetting all day to acknowledge your very kind and encouraging post to me. In particular, this sentence stood out:

[color=0033FF]I came to myself because I was in Christ, I found my way back to the Father’s house because He was my Father. [/color]

I identify with it completely. The thing I remembered when I was feeling low that evening, was how I'd been taught that if I divorced, I could never marry again, no matter how right and reasonable my behaviour before God. It is this false doctrine which contributed to my inner malaise, and which the Lord Himself addressed with me this past summer.

This was just a little test, for me to be reminded of what I'd been delivered from... I feel I won't fall for it the next time.

 2006/3/11 18:36









 Re: Pastor, husband of one wife


Diane,

You asked me something, I've just discovered a page or two back....

'PS Dorcas, Can you "hear" the SILENCE?.... '

YES, praise the Lord! And it's VERY loud.

 2006/3/11 19:13
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
And so about remarriage after divorce... well, why should we not accept that? A new partner could very well be an expression of God's mercy.



Diane, this is the crux of the disagreements with many on the topic of a divorced AND remarried man being in leadership. Many Christians believe the scriptures teach remarriage when one has a living spouse is entering into a STATE of adultery (meaning someone is joining themself with another who does not belong to them--- Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39, Mt. 5:32, Mt. 19:9. Mk. 10:12, Lk. 16:18). It is not viewed as a "one time" sin which can be repented of---- unless the adulterous relationship is forsaken---as that would be the fruit of repentance concerning ANY adulterous relationship. The person/persons are married to other people in the eyes of the Lord, not to each other.

If someone repented of adultery in THAT manner, truly becoming once again---the husband of ONE wife---then yes, being appointed to a leadership role or being restored is completely possible. God's grace and mercy is there for the repentant and his previous sin is remembered NO more. Just as the woman caught in adultery was told to go and sin no more (stop her adulterous relationship), so Jesus calls those who follow Him to do the same----whatever sin it is, not just adultery.

You need to understand Diane, those who believe the scriptures teach the permanency of marriage (in reality, not idealism), would see such appointments as condoning sin "in the camp". Many who get angry at those of us who believe and speak of the permanency of marriage would not think to join a church which had an actively practicing homosexual as Pastor or one who blessed homosexual unions. Sexual immorality is sexual immorality, yet it seems we condone one type in the pulpit and/or other leadership positions, but we wouldn't think to darken the doorway of another church were immoral acts of homosexuality are lifted up as "good" and honorable in the sight of God. Many of us are asking ourselves, "what is the difference?" Our judgement of sexual sin in the "church" seems very hypocritical.

See, as you have witnessed on this board in the past, many have decried the growing acceptance of homosexual relationships in the "church" today. Yet, when we have adulterous relationships (defined by Jesus as such), people are now saying "Hey, God can bless that relationship and use it for good"........If this is true, and God is using adulterous relationships for "good", blessing and honoring them, why are we coming against homosexual relationships? Why not have the same "grace and mercy" towards those and instead of appealing to them to depart from their sin, tell them it's ok to stay in those relationships because the blood of Jesus covers them?

Paul gave the LORD'S requirements, and personally, I do not feel following those requirements is "legalistic". They have purpose.

I know you believe I am very "legalistic" and unmerciful in my stance and I know the internet is not a very good avenue sometimes to express oneself, but I think if you met me in person, you would see that I am far from legalistic......What I am is convinced in what I believe the Lord showed me in the last few years----not only showing me the written Word, but His heart behind that Word. I fully recognize that I'm FAR from where I want to be in the Lord, so I am not speaking out of "self-righteousness" because I fully believe that whatever "good" is in me is only from above. Those who are truly born again are not yet "completed", nor will we be, until the Lord comes. It is THEN, when we see Him, that we shall be LIKE HIM. Until then, we are ALL a work in progress---even elders/deacons/pastors. Even so, as we undergo the necessary transformation, we must not lighten up those things the Lord has spoken and make concessions for sin that the Lord did not make. Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2006/3/11 22:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Those who are born again are not yet "completed", nor will we be, until the Lord comes. It is THEN, when we shall be LIKE HIM. Until then, we are ALL a work in progress---even elders/deacons/pastors. Even so, as we undergo the necessary transformation, we must not lighten up those things the Lord has spoken and make concession for sin that the Lord did not make.

Amen sister!!!!!

I need lots of work myself.

Oh that I could become more like HIM!!!

 2006/3/11 23:21
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Hello Cindy,

[b]With:[/b]

1 Corinthians 6:1-8

[i]1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? [/i]
[i]2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [/i]
[i]3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?[/i]
[i]4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [/i]
[i]5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? [/i]
[i]6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.[/i]
[i]7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [/i]
[i]8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.[/i]

[b]in mind[/b], on what basis would a “Christian” couple, go before a divorce court?
I do not recall reading this passage discussed in regards to the topic should it be applicable.

Blessings,
tony


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/12 19:33Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.



Tony,

You have touched on a real fault line in our modern church. I think there is much to discuss here. Measuring the modern church against these verses shows why convictions against remarriage seem like so much convenience.

The verses you brought to attention are hardly obeyed anymore. We all know plenty of Christians who avail themselves of the court systems...with both the saved and unsaved. It's difficult to imagine not doing so in this world. In fact, when we are seeking an attorney to represent us in court, many of us want a Christian to represent us.

It is the litigious world as we have made it. I have a good lawyer friend who consults with churches making sure they are non-profit compliant and well positioned against frivolous or unexpected suits. This is what we have come to in Christian America. What happens if a kid chokes on a prize given at a youth event? What happens if a teen makes claims that her youth pastor was improper towards her? What about improper financial management?

Let's discuss the relevancy of these scriptures to the topic of suing for divorce.

If these scriptures only apply between brothers, that is it's permissable to sue the unsaved, then this particular scripture has little relevance in those cases where a believer is unequally contracted to unbelieving spouses.

Obviously these scriptures say that suits between brethren is wrong. In fact it seems that even outside arbitration between brethren is shameful. Now, these verses don't seem to be cast as strict law, but make it clear that those who resort to outside courts to seek "judgments of things pertaining to this life" are 'shameful'. Still, many are simply not willing to live according to these scriptures. Goodness gracious, most of our churches and ministries are secular legal entities filed according to state and local non-profit regulations and subject to the legal system therein. Our church buildings are financed by secular banks who hold our deeds with the power to foreclose for non-payment according to termsheets we gladly sign and shake hands on. The legal status of our Christian organizations is bestowed by the courts and financial institutions of this world!

Now, in light of this obvious unwillingness for most of us to forego our legal rights, to suffer even momentary legal injustice...or even inconvenience at the hand of another...can we imagine how hard it is for women in continuous abusive situations to hear that they have to turn the other cheek? Most Christian business men wouldn’t endure a single incident of wrongful financial loss, but women (and men) in harmful marriages are made to choose between spiritual, emotional and physical degradation for a lifetime or shame. What’s good for the goose doesn't seem applicable to the gander.

I've said it before...one sin doesn't justify another. However, these verses demonstrate far we have slipped from the ideal in scripture...not just divorced people but the body as a whole.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/3/12 20:22Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Mc,

Yes, I look forward to reading comments on this passage of scripture. I believe we would make a proper distinction between the rather benign filing of proper documents as it relates to non-profit organizations and the issue at hand of settling disputes between brethren? And in my estimation that is the real key (brethren).

There are so many facets to this entire thread that perhaps we normally do not consider, the governments involvement in one-flesh unions comes to mind as well.

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/12 21:04Profile





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