I understand, I came out of one just recently. But one question that i have is this. Is the pastor preaching according to scripture or are just the people in your church just not gettin it
| 2006/2/28 14:11||Profile|
| Re:( 'Stolen' from another thread :)|
To really understand this topic we have to rewind the tape back a long ways- clear to the churches of the New Testament. Here is an awesome thought to ponder; "What is it about the way we conduct our 'services' that makes a vital aspect of Christianity such as tongues or any gift of the Spirit no longer important or even unwelcome and begrudged?" God created the Tongues of scripture; not man. Maybe it is because man has created the 'services' that what God created no longer fits? The reality is, when things are functioning rightly near everyone in the service will have 'something' to contribute to that meeting. The one drawing attention to themselves is the guy behind the pulpit (and often that is me as I often preach). So the attention upon ones-self is not the issue if God has elected to use that individual at the moment.
Think about it a minute; what part of a 'service' is someone [u]not[/u] attracting attention to themselves? Is it when the MC gets up and opens? How about when the praise and worship leader starts leading? What about the offering taker and later the preacher? What about the person praying over the service (prayer leader)? So why in the midst of all this would 'tongues' get singled out?
Consider this also, 'Greek' was the 'English' of the New Testament times. Why would tongues be needed any 'more' or 'less' in the first century than now? Were there really all sorts of folk that needed a tongue in Corinth? Was that a missionary effort? That was a well established church. And if Paul was speaking all over the Greek speaking world, why did he thank God that he spake with tongues "more than ye all"?
We don't like anything that makes us look foolish do we? Its nothing new. If God had used spiritual sign language we had shunned it also. Why? Because it does not add to our credibility in the eyes of people and forces us to allow God to be God and we don't like that. We want order and structure and smooth sailing. We give lipservice to God being God and for a pretense offer it all as worship. :-?
I have known of many people to give a message in tongues in a service and I can say with relative certainty that it goes against anything the flesh would ever want to do. Sing like Frank Sinatra, yes, (I speak as a fool) but give a nasty old message in them there tongues? The beauty of the gift is so far beyond us that the enemy would do anything to make that gift to look foolish or cast it in a bad light. God made it and He gave it and it is a good gift. But like Peter and the sheet, we want to repulse at what God has blessed. I can almost hear those words... that, call NOT thou common or unclean! ;-)
I should wish never to scoff at any of the things of God. No matter how I was raised or how bad something about Him or His provision 'strikes me'. It is a [u]cross[/u] for most people to give a message in tongues in my circles. And much of the reason it is- is because of the feelings so articulately expressed in the original question. And because of this and other reasons, we are loosing Pentecostalism as it was once known in my parts and we are smack in the AoG and PCG state (Missouri). :-(
| 2006/2/28 17:33|
hi warrior, i am sorry for my abrupt retort but i have seen thousands of catholic people get saved around the world in the last 42 years. real revivals in argentina,where paul ravenhill ministered for years, mexico, columbia,cuba and even the catholic aharismatic revival of the 60s and 70s;which filled up evangelical churches all over the world.... brother will; after writing his masters thesis on how tongues was not for today and at the nobts it ain't; went to pray for his mother who was on her deathbed. he asked God to heal her as he held her hand and he began speaking in tongues. she was healed and he was shocked. while weeping over my sins 42 years ago i told God how that i was a good sinner but didn't think i would be a very good christian and i began speaking in tongues(never even heard about this gift or evidence or asa len ravenhill used to tell me"if you want the Holy Spirit you are going to accept everything that comes with Him you figure it out... i'm resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ.jimp
| 2006/2/28 19:26||Profile|
Are thay still catholic?
| 2006/2/28 19:51||Profile|
hi, the question is not are they catholic, but are they saved. there are only the lost and the saved. Jesus said that He cameNOT to condemn the world but through Him the world might be saved.jimp
| 2006/2/28 21:46||Profile|
| Re: go to the source!|
The relationship between catholic and charismatic has popped up in this tongues discussion a few times. Indeed, sometimes it's good to ask people who actually ARE Catholic and speak in tongues. That is what I did, and this is the answer I received (had posted on another tongues thread that disappeared)
Here it is, right from the "horse's mouth":
It's not a question of Catholics speaking in tongues....why is anybody speaking in tongues? Speaking in tongues is one of the most common of gifts from the Holy Spirit. It enhances worship - i.e. when one runs out of superlatives and praises during worship it's a joy to be able to let go
completely and speak or sing in tongues. This should not be confused with the other gift of tongues which is more serious and prophetic. It could be an existing or a defunct language - but, at all times, needs to be interpreted on the spot by someone with the gift of interpretation. If you
are born again and living in the spirit, you receive the gifts. The Holy Spirit makes no denominational distinction!
Hope this helps.
| 2006/3/1 8:12||Profile|
| Re: get discernment|
Earlier someone mentioned about dreams and visions, so I will respond to that too.
Here again is a God-given means of discernment and enlightenment that has gone off the rails by countless. But that does not negate it. Earlier you read about the fake $20 bill. Its like that. If you dont or cant discern, you will be fooled. Not only that, you will be led astray by those very gifts either embracing them or refusing to accept them. James tells us why people fall into sin: its because of their sinful desires. Countless sinners do not want God, but desire a religious, ecstatic experience. That is a dangerous sinful desire. Satan is eager to comply by counterfeiting Gods gifts. On the other hand many want to have a well-controlled religious experiences, in which their own intellect rules. That is also a dangerous desire, and Satan can give them counterfeits (good intellectual arguments).
God has not given me the gift of tongues, but he does give me dreams and visions. I would like to share an experience of a particular dream, and you can translate it into this tongues issue:
One night (?Tues) God gave me a dream in which I was told that I would NOT be attending my church on Sunday. For the next several days I pondered what that could mean. I knew it was a take, that is, one really from God (as compared to one not from God). So I did a lot of speculation: Was I going to suddenly be called to another church to fill in as worship leader or pianist.
. By Saturday night I got very irritated at God, telling him he was annoying me with all these revelatory experiences. And I asked him to stop it.
. Sunday morning I drove to church, most irritated at God. I scolded him; God, how can I know when its from you? How can I trust you? Why are you confusing me?
Before the service I prayed with the pastor in his office, as I often did. Then just at 11am I suddenly got the idea that I should call home and check on my son who was ill. He was indeed in a serious condition (has diabetes) and so I needed to go home immediately. As I was driving home, God spoke to me saying, See, you can trust me. (ie regarding dreams and visions)
Now, those who never have dreams and visions could write several pages here discussing the authenticity of revelatory gifts. But in the end, it is a case of merely trusting God
.. and leaving it at that.
Seek discernment not merely in your own natural intellect, but supernatural discernment from God
. you will be fooled in many ways.
It is a case of dying to the flesh that crucifying process
. Are you willing?
I must decrease, he must increase.
| 2006/3/1 8:39||Profile|
I have much to say but i'm afraid I've run out of time here at chicago. Its time to go back to england. Hopefully i get to speak with you guys once again. When i get internet i will be sure to pop back in. Thank you for the info.
| 2006/3/1 20:10||Profile|
| 2006/3/1 20:31|
mountains of Pa.
Ok I will tell the Dream!it was very short.In 1990,............I was in a high-rise building, un- certain,of what floor I was on,..but the view from the big window I could see other building,..and The day-light was bright.Some people filled the room dressed up,I knew not their faces,but seemed like they were about to celebrate somthing,some where holding gifts.( the floor begain to shake and the buliding moved with the shaking, .....Then with a voice which shock my very being,A voice as deep as thunder" this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased
" ..I fell to the floor in fear on my knees and prayed.I woke up .....at that time of the dream,i never read the bible,i came across matt3-18 much later when i started to read the bible,and re played the dream i had in my mind. what does this mean Idon't know? but that I had it.
| 2006/3/1 21:11||Profile|