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 Re:

Oh about what Wigglesworth said ...

I don't believe you can go up to someone and command or demand they speak in tongues in front of you. It's given for "prayer and praise" and the Holy Spirit prays or praises through us ... but not on someone else's "demand". That's an insult to the Spirit of Christ.

Not saying he was a real bad guy, just don't agree with that stuff.

(o: }

 2006/2/27 1:18









 Re:

Quote:

letsgetbusy wrote:
Annie,

I have seen many of the stances. I was baptized by the Holy Ghost, and did not speak in tongues. I even went to the Lord in prayer, asking for tongues if it was His will. His answer: 'covet earnestly the best gifts.'

Many who speak in tongues feel beat up because they do speak in tongues. I have felt beat up because I did not. Like my experience wasn't genuine.

This aside, anyone who is a child of God is my brother or sister in Christ. I hope we can all continue to discuss and debate in a spirit of unity.

1 Cor 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."




Couldn't agree with you more Brother.
If we sought it as "a gift from 1 Corth 12", for sure He'd give that answer, no doubt at all.

Believing as I do, that there are two differing tongues, the one given at the Baptism is for "personal use, for prayer and praise" and not for out loud in Church as the "gift" is that requires "interpretation".

Love is why Paul "sandwiched" 1 Corth 13 'between' the two Chapters on the gifts. 12 & 14.

God Bless you bountifully.

 2006/2/27 1:24
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

HI I never got angry at any one here,and I'm not coming against any pentelcostals.I will say I'm a poor typest,and speller.I'm a Christain Eastern Orthodox,I'm from the states,and yes I'm a sinner,just like every one here.who is in need of forgiveness everyday,By the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.when i found this site,It made me think,why do some say this,or better.why do some do it this way.as reading post.there are so many branches to the vine.and I still don't know what method of faith or church people go to on this Forum. i will say I'm a sinner in needing Christ.

 2006/2/27 1:32Profile









 Re:

Hey, now you're putting a face on the printed words there brother GQ.

I think this was the BEST post you've done since you've been here.

I liked it very much and if you're "a sinner in needing Christ" ... you and we are very welcomed here.

This is one of the best Forums out there. I've watched over and just observed so many, my head swims.

I finally found this one ... and though we're not perfect here, I still say this Forum has the best posters I've seen on the Internet.

It's like a Family here. Sometimes we misunderstand each other, but that happens anywhere in Cyberspace, because we can't see each other and hear each other's voices and tone of voices and all of what we can do at Church.

But then, I've even see people misunderstand each other in Church, so we have to wait things out sometimes.

If I say something to offend someone ... I hope they will tell me, either in public or PM, however they choose.
I posted that a long time ago, but maybe I should put that in my signature.

I probably come off sounding very hard too.
I always say ... I will give any member my phone number and then I will call them back so it's free for them, if they want to hear me say I'm sorry or anything else.

It's very hard to communicate over the Internet ... believe me, it is very very hard.

Thank you for coming back and talking to me.
I know now that you care and I will be ever so much more careful in trying to get points across clearer and you can talk to us as your friends ... because actually, we're more than friends ... we're family.

God Bless you GQ and I hope you will stay here with us.
His Love to you.
Annie

 2006/2/27 2:00
Josiah777
Member



Joined: 2004/2/17
Posts: 99
Sterling, VA

 Re:

I read through all the postings on this topic, and I thought the discussion has been edifying and good, especially since it is one that tends to be highly controversial. There is a recent thread under the "Scriptures and Doctrine" forum called "1 Corinthians 14:13" that addresses alot of what has been spoken of in here, with the exception of the speaking in tongues amongst Roman Catholics. As far as that one, I do know that in the 1960's there began a charismatic movement among Roman Catholics that replicated alot of what was happening in Pentecostal circles. Other than that, I don't know much about it.

In the 1 Corinthians 14:13 thread, it has been mentioned in detail how the gift of tongues of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 differs from the tongues that were manifested in Acts 2, 10 and 19, so I won't belabor that. I find a lot of well-meaning brothers and sisters who get a bit confused when they try to mix and match things that are indeed similar but are not identical in purpose in function. If you don't see clearly how they differ, that thread may be of some help for you.

I have grown up spiritually in an Assembly of God (A/G) type of church, so naturally I am going to have a bias after a "Pentecostal" nature. One big disagreement with folks is what is the sign of the "baptism in the Holy Spirit." From 1906 onward (at Azusa Street revival, and actually a little earlier--around 1900), the manifestation of tongues has been stated as "the initial, physical evidence" of that baptism. Why would people make that kind of assertion? Well, when you read through the Book of Acts, there are five accounts of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. In three of them (Acts 2, 10 and 19), tongues were in evidence. In Acts 8, there was something physical, for Simon the sorcerer saw it and wanted to pay money to get the gift of laying hands on others to receive that same gift of the Holy Spirit. In Peter's explanation in Acts 8, he said that he had no part in that matter, which is from the Greek logos, which can be translated as speach or utterance. We can INFER that this manifestation was also tongues, since that is the physical manifestation that went along with the other 3. I mean, we could get into speculation of other things outside of Bible revelation, like maybe they did cartwheels or jumping jacks or whatever. But perhaps you can see the line of reasoning.

With Paul's baptism in the Spirit in Acts chapter 9, no reference is made to tongues. We do see in 1 Corinthians 14 where Paul said he was glad that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians. We could INFER that Paul received tongues when he was baptized in the Spirit. BUT Acts 9 neither really proves nor disproves tongues as a manifestation in Paul's case. We know by comparing Gospel accounts of the exact same incident that some details are left out of one but included in another. Even in the three accounts of Paul's conversion in Acts, there are some details Luke chose to record in one version of the story that he did not in another. Anyway, the point is, I don't think one could PROVE Paul spoke in tongues at his baptism, but neither can one DISPROVE it, just because Luke did not mention it. If Paul did speak in tongues, Luke certainly did not think it was noteworthy enough of mentioning it in light of the other spectacular things that happened, like his blind eyes being opened. So really in my opinion, if one wants to see what the Bible says about the EXPERIENCE of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the safest ground to stand upon would be those four accounts (Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19). 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are not accounts of the experience but about specific application of the use of these gifts in a believers' meeting.

The other side of the coin is those who will point out mighty men of God who did not speak in tongues. Were men like John Wesley, Charles Finney, D.L. Moody and other great soul winners who did not speak in tongues NOT baptized in the Holy Spirit? And even in more recent times, great revivals in Wales and those in the Hebredes under Duncan Campbell were ones of the obvious demonstration of God's power in reviving the church and awakening lost sinners. They did not speak with tongues, but no one can deny God's power was observably and spectularly put on display. As we look at Jesus' parting words, His emphasis alway lay on the POWER to be His WITNESS (Acts 1:8). The Lord's words settle the issue. If one does not have power to live a holy life and be a dynamic witness for the Lord Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what kind of "tongues" the person professes; he or she didn't receive what Christ promised as the heart and substance of the baptism in the Spirit--power.

Jesus also did say in Mark 16 that one of the sign that would follow believers would be speaking in tongues. By watching what happened in the unfolding of God's promises and plans in the Church through the Book of Acts, we see that the tongues Jesus made reference to were always in close connection and association with the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

One thing which is interesting about the Day of Pentecost was that the Spirit of God was represented in two symbols--a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire. The rushing mighty wind, the whirlwind (or tornado or hurricane) is emblematic of God's power to destroy the works of the devil, just like Jesus did when He had the Holy Spirit upon Him (Acts 10:38). I think the real heart of the issue is: do I have that power? When I speak, do my words have that kind of power to effect God's righteousness and power to deliver as a rushing mighty wind? We can look at pictures from huricane Rita's devastation of the Gulf Coast; it was not the same afterwards. Does my ministry have that kind of effect spiritually on the lives of others? Or is it more like a gentle breeze that just rustles the leaves a bit, but when all is said in done, everything remains as powerless, dead and impotent as before? Jesus said in John 7:37-39 that out our innermost being will flow RIVERS (not trickles) of living water. An honest person should ask, "Do I have rivers?" And if not, be thirsty, come to Jesus for a drink, and ask the Father in faith for the Spirit as He taught us to do (Luke 11:13).

The second symbol on the day of Pentecost was the tongues of fire. Fire everywhere in Scripture is a symbol of purity and holiness. It is hypocrisy to think that I can speak in tongues in the worship meeting but yell at my wife or kids at home in my mother tongue. The fire of God should change our tongues from being set on fire for hell (as James says) to being set on for heaven! If one doesn't have a speech life that is pure and holy--free from whisperings, backbitings, gossip, slander and such like--then I would question what kind of "tongues" that person really has.

This is my opinion, but I think that the baptism in the Spirit has those two components--power and tongues (with purity especially in view). The church at its onset had these two very much united. On the day on Pentecost "all" spoke in tongues. At Cornelius' house, everybody there spoke in tongues. At Ephesus, all 12 men spoke in tongues. At Samaria, the magician observed that "anyone" who had their hands laid on them received the Holy Spirit with some observable sign. If Paul were to write an epistle today, he would have had to address the confusion about tongues or no tongues at the baptism in the Spirit, is it for today, etc. But there wasn't any such confusion then, just the stuff in the worship meeting some of the Corinthians had about the use of the gift of the Spirit there.

Since the time of Luther and the Reformers, gradual and periodical strides have been made in revelation with the Church universal. It started with justification by faith with Luther. Wesley brought it further with daily, practical holiness of life. The 1800's with a reawakening of Christendom of their worldwide responsibility for missions. In 1906 with Azusa Street, I believe there was another advance. And yes, with each advance of revelation, there is controversy and abuses. But isn't the fundamental question this: when the whole church is expressing tongues in association with the baptism in the Holy Spirit, does that seem MORE LIKE the Book of Acts or LESS LIKE it? That's a question you need to ask for yourself as you seek the heart and mind of God from His Word.

Everything that the Holy Spirit does glorifies Jesus. The other thread I made reference to speaks toward that aspect of a prayer language that edifies the believer and provides an outlet for his or her spirit to pray, enhancing communion and intimacy with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. May God richly bless you as you seek His face and to know His Word, topics like these and others.


_________________
Ken Marino

 2006/2/27 9:19Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

Thank you all for your imputs. this is for j777. Did you know that all the manifestations of tongues in acts were like that of pentecost. There was no need for translation. (Acts 10:47)also It was fufill the apostles great commission. (Acts 1:8) Every time somone spke in tongues, they fufilled each of those requirements. Now the one in corith was different becuz it required interpretation. Though there is more I can teach on the subject thats all I want to correct.(Everyone) Now From what i read from everyone it seems that we all can agree that it doesn't matter what gift you have, if we have not Lolve we are nothing. Not only that, the people that say lord, lord in matthews gosple talk about doing many wonders and God still says Depart from me i never knew you. In conclusion, I have seen that tongues can be relavent for the present but the tongues being spoken today is not that from corinth. Becasue is the catholics are speaking in them and if there is no way we can discern between the two then the language call WE call tongues is obsolete. There are signs and lying wonders and that may be one of them. I find it hard to believe that the millions of professing christians "who speak in tongues" are actually saved. I've met some rotten people who have supposedly been baptised by the spirit w/ the "evidence". Now there are people, that i know, who speak in tongues and i know by thier fruit they are saved. And both the christian and the false christian sound the same when they speak it. And since now Catholics are speaking in them just to get a crowd and to "glorify the Mass and Mary" I have a big problem with it. I'm not making this up. You can go to Google and type in Charasmatic Catholics or Catholics speaking in tongues and you'll find the history behind it all. Also people were speaking in this so called tongues way before asuza street. If anything, Tongues gives people a false sense of security that they are saved when they are not. I know some people that when they speak in tongues they get some kind answer to prayer or a deeper revelation on scripture. I get the same thing when i speak in a regular languageor when i speak not at all. Its all about meditation! When our mind is focused on God and all attention is on him, only then do we get the glory to surround us. Only then do we get revelation to scripture, or answer to prayer, etc. This is not an insult nor am i speaking in in harsh tone but i feel that the body of christ has been greatly decieved and not only that but the unbelievers are decieved as well. I believe tongues is real, but not the tongues we see today. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit nor a godd tree bear bad fruit. And it seems as if this sign of tongues grows on both trees. If you really want to get a spiritual revelation of the truth, Go to: http://dunamai.com/Azusa/azusa-index.htm and read through the history and what was going on the services. It was report that ver few preaching had gone on. People were shouting "bring forth the tongues". Even the leader deied it's authenticity. If you want to find the truth about anything, go to the history on the beginning.(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. KJV. This is why the bible history is so important. And this is why we need to search for history as well as the bible. Because history proves itself.

 2006/2/27 14:54Profile
Josiah777
Member



Joined: 2004/2/17
Posts: 99
Sterling, VA

 Re:

Quote:

warriorofgod wrote:
Did you know that all the manifestations of tongues in acts were like that of pentecost. There was no need for translation. (Acts 10:47)also It was fufill the apostles great commission. (Acts 1:8) Every time somone spke in tongues, they fufilled each of those requirements. Now the one in corith was different becuz it required interpretation.


Hi warriorofgod: yes, I agree with you that the tongues spoken of throughout Acts are one and the same, and there is a distinction being made in 1 Corinthians. I would make this comment about tongues being a fulfillment of the Great Commission (meaning the preaching of the gospel to every creature) though. On the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the sign of the other tongues attracted people's attention, but it was Peter's straightforward preaching of the gospel message with which conviction came upon the multitude and 3,000 were saved. There is no record of any conversions immediately following the hearing of tongues. Salvation experiences recorded in the Book of Acts always followed the preaching of the gospel not tongues. Just a little something more for you to chew on :-)


_________________
Ken Marino

 2006/2/27 16:25Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

Thanx

 2006/2/27 17:11Profile









 Re:

I believe personally, that the tongues received at Spirit Baptism is for "personal/private use for prayer and praise" and that "the gift of tongues in 1 Corth 12" are different than the prayer language, where the HOLY Spirit prays what we don't know "what to pray" and also "worships in spirit" for us and also as Paul said ... that we can ask for "understanding" when we pray in the Spirit, that The Spirit will let us know what this burden is that is being expressed in 'tongues'.
It's a beautiful blessing and good when you're really pressed in and don't know what to pray.

From the language, it seems the one was/is a 'manifestation' of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the other is "the gift of tongues" found in 1Corth. 12:10.
1- Manifestation 2- Gift .

Within these verses in 1Corth. 12, we see the "gift of faith" also ... but all believers have 'faith'.

This (gift) is a Faith, above and beyond the faith given all believers ... so the tongues within the same verses of 1Corth12 are a tongues, 'above and beyond' the "manifestation" of tongues, that is given to every believer when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as a sign onto them, that they have indeed, received the Baptism (to avoid question, etc.) and to aid them as their own Prayer and Praise language.

This is brought out in the Greek of these verses, besides in studying the events in the book of Acts.

The numbers by each word below are Strong's Concordance numbering, in order to look up definitions, grammar, etc. of the Greek. If you can read between the numbers, you're doing good.

Definitions of words below each verse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Corth. 12:4-10 ...

1Co 12:4 Now1161 there are1526 diversities1243 of gifts,5486 but1161 the3588 same846 Spirit.4151

1Co 12:5 And2532 there are1526 differences1243 of administrations,1248 but2532 the3588 same846 Lord.2962

1Co 12:6 And2532 there are1526 diversities1243 of operations,1755 but1161 it is2076 the3588 same846 God2316 which worketh1754 all3956 in1722 all.3956

1Co 12:7 'BUT' 1161 the3588 "manifestation"5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to 'every man'1538 to4314 profit4851 .

Other english versions - 1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the "showing forth" or "manifestaion": of the Spirit to "our profit." Some versions say "common good".

"Manifestation" = G5321 φανερωσις phanerōsis fan-er'-o-sis From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation. Used only in 1Co. 12:7 and 2 Co. 4:2.

".... Is given to Every man to profit withal"

Verse 7 above says in the Greek "THE manifestation." Singular ... not the manifestations. (the gifts)

Now this... the Greek compared to the English ...

1Co 12:8 For1063 to one3739, 3303 is given1325 by1223 the3588 Spirit4151 the word3056 of wisdom;4678 to(1161) another 243 the word3056 of knowledge1108 by2596 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151

Two different words for "another". So far we have #G243 above in red in verse 8.

"Another" = #G243 άλλος allos al'-los A primary word; "else", that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).

But next in verse 9 we have #G2087 as "another"... and for good reason.

1Co 12:9 To(1161) "another 2087" faith4102 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 to(1161) another 243 (as above) the gifts5486 of healing2386 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151

1st "Another" in vs. 9 - #G2087 έτερος heteros het'-er-os Of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different: - altered, else, next (day), one, (an-) other, some, strange. (Where we get our prefix hetero-sexual).

All Saints have "faith", but this "Gift of Faith" is "different" then the faith that all Saints possess. That is why a different Greek word is used for "another" in this case.

Further in this same verse {9} we have "another" again but it is back to #243, because not "all" are necessarily used in healings, as all do have "faith". Paul had to make sure these folks understood, that the (gift of) faith he was speaking of was totally different then the faith they already possessed.

Remember: The Greek consisted of 24 types of the word "the", so it was the most accurate language in human history. Not one word was used haphazardly or for careless reasons.

1Co 12:10 To(1161) another 243 the working1755 of miracles;1411 to(1161) another 243 prophecy;4394 to(1161) another 243 discerning1253 of spirits;4151 to(1161) another 2087 divers kinds1085 of tongues;1100 to(1161) another 243 the interpretation2058 of tongues:1100

Notice that #243 (allos) for "another" is used four times in verse 10, EXCEPT with the Gift of Tongues.

Only "Faith" and "Tongues" are matched with "heteros" .... Why ?

Why not use #243 for ALL the Gifts ?

All do have faith, AND as seen in the book of Acts and in verse 7 above, the "manifestation" {exhibition or expression} of tongues, is given to all.

Act 10:45,46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost for G1063 they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

G1063 γάρ gar gar A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

Tongues, the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism is "given to all", but the "Gift of tongues of 1Co12, 14" is not.

Not all are used to give a message in Tongues {that requires an "interpretation"} in the Church ... but all are given the 'manifestation' (some call tongues, "the evidence of the Baptism") to "profit" .... the Modern KJV says "to our profit" and the NIV says "common good". But whatever profits one part (person) in the Body, profits all.

The 'Manifestation' given upon Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is 'for personal use' for prayer and praise 1Co 14:13-15.

This "different" #G2087 - "heteros tongues", is as different as "the gift of faith" is different from the faith we all have.

Again, only the gifts of "faith and tongues" have the word "heteros" used with them... the rest just use "allos".

In Chapter 14 Paul is trying to teach these people how to use the "manifestation of the Spirit".

It was all new to them, so of course there was some messing up with this "new thing".

They were getting out of control with their speaking/praying/praising in tongues. (As they still do :)

Not all are used in the "gift of tongues" from the verses above, so it appears that they were just praying or praising in tongues {14:2 & 4 "speaketh to God" & "edifieth himself"} OUT LOUD and causing confusion.

It was because they all had tongues, that the confusion was happening.

Tongues - when it is "Interpreted" equals Prophecy, according to this chapter.

Prophecy is not always prophesying the future , but also the giving of a direct word for the moment, directly from God at that moment.

That is why Paul said, desire "prophecy" over showing off your tongues ... because your tongues doesn't profit anyone else, UNLESS you also Interpret ... 14:5 & 13-15 ... then it is worth something to others.

Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: {Acts 2:3,4}

1 Corth. 13, The Love Chpt., was "sandwiched" between Chapters 12 and 14 (the gifts and their use chpt.s) for a very specific reason.

1Co 13:1,2 If I speak with the languages of men or of angels (not just earthly languages), but don't have LOVE, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have LOVE, I am nothing. ETC.ETC. LOVE...


Sorry so messy, but I wanted to have the Strong's numbers up for anyone who wanted to check on this.

God Bless.

 2006/2/27 17:18









 Re:

I meant to show some things in "red", but can't figure how to change colors on here. :-(

 2006/2/27 17:31





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