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philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
Every thing we believe is of faith, be it Law or Grace. I believe that the chair I am going to sit on will hold me.


This is an often quoted illustration but I think it has some serious problems. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.

Bible 'faith' is based on 'revelation'. Bible faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I don't only mean a Bible verse but that 'word' to our inner consciousness to which our conscience 'bears witness'... The sense of 'recognition' that causes a man or woman to say 'yes, I see it' or if they are from a 'good' background ;-) 'amen'. In fact, in the first use of the verb 'believe' (of which the noun is faith) is in Gen 15:6. and, would you believe it, the Hebrew word for believe is 'amen'!?

EDIT. When the Hebrews chapter on 'faith' opens it begins by reference to the 'elders'“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.” (Heb 11:1-2 KJVS)I think, perhaps, that the ASV translation captures something more clearly than the KJV “Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. For therein the elders had witness borne to them.” (Heb 11:1-2 ASV) It seems to me that this whole passage is important in the way it totally disregards what men have called 'dispensations' and dips in and out of various eras without distinction; Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Jacob, Joseph and Moses' parents and Moses himself were all pre-law. That glorious woman Rahab (who James places next to Abraham) is in no covenant and under no dispensation but here faith puts the Israelites to shame. The next list, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepththah, Samuel, David and the prophets were all 'under the law'. In Christ's day a Roman centurian and a Syro--Phoenician who were also outside 'the covenant' were commeded for their faith.

It is easy to miss the link in the KJV...Heb. 11:2 (KJVS) For by it the elders [u]obtained a good report[u/u].
Heb. 11:4 (KJVS) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he [u]obtained witness[/u] that he was righteous, God [u]testifying[/u] of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb. 11:5 (KJVS) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this [u]testimony[/u], that he pleased God.
Heb. 11:39 (KJVS) And these all, having [u]obtained a good report[/u] through faith, received not the promise: All the underlined phrases are various translations of one word 'martureO' which means to 'bear witness'. (this is the legacy of William Tyndale and his 'studied variety') If we view those same verses in the ASV... Heb. 11:2 (ASV) For therein the elders [u]had witness borne[/u] to them.
Heb. 11:4 (ASV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which [u]he had witness borne[/u] to him that he was righteous, God [u]bearing witness[/u] in respect of his gifts: and through it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb. 11:5 (ASV) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for [u]he hath had witness borne[/u] to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:
Heb. 11:39 (ASV) And these all, [u]having had witness borne[/u] to them through their faith, received not the promise, ...we see that the translators here have tried to maintain the linkage. The sense here is that all of these people 'had the witness', that is, not only did they 'have faith' but they knew they 'had faith' God 'bore witness' to them that their faith 'pleased God'.

One of the great dangers that we have visited often on these pages is that 'mental assent' is mistaken for faith, but we are not 'justified by mental assent' nor by our deep appreciation of the intracacies of the doctrine, we are 'justified by faith'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/25 16:06Profile
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 Re:

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 26:18 is very clear about whose faith we are sanctified with, not by the faith of all the: "" It seems to me that this whole passage is important in the way it totally disregards what men have called 'dispensations' and dips in and out of various eras without distinction; Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Jacob, Joseph and Moses' parents and Moses himself were all pre-law. That glorious woman Rahab (who James places next to Abraham) is in no covenant and under no dispensation but here faith puts the Israelites to shame. The next list, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepththah, Samuel, David and the prophets were all 'under the law'. In Christ's day a Roman centurian and a Syro--Phoenician who were also outside 'the covenant' were commeded for their faith."" Yes, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness, reckoned righteous, and being made righteousness by Righteousness Himself in us are two complete different stewardships of Faith. One man's faith, believing what God says, and because of God's Grace being made righteous because of what they believe, not by the Son of God that is in them. The other believing what God says and being made righteous by the One that is in us and by His Faith sanctified and made literal son's by the Son's Faith that is born again in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Is our glory in Abraham by his faith or is our glory in Christ by His Faith. One is earthly human faith which God had to reckon to them as righteousness, the other the Glory of Christ and His Faith that has been made unto us by God that we might glory in Him and not Abraham. Jhn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

The only answer is; Yes I Jesus Christ am greater than Abraham and God My Father Makest Me and I stand before you as God and His Son. This has to be two different stewardships of the Gospel of Paul which he makes very clear the two are separate. One the faith of Abraham which is not the faith of Christ, and the other the Faith of Christ which is God's Faith. One taking the outward appearance of “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.” (Heb 11:1-2 KJVS) The other as Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Who's faith are we sanctified by? The Faith that is in Jesus Christ. Again 1Cor 1:30

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Who's Faith? The faith of Jesus Christ is our faith and this is the Faith that will show the whole world who He is. What is the the power of this faith? Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The calling by God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? The Faith of God is the effect that is needed to believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, Lord, Life and Faith. What makes us just, not my faith, but the Faith of the Son of God by which we now live our lives. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. In my words; not by my faith in the works of the Law but by the Faith of Jesus Christ in me by whom I live a faithful life in Him and unto God the Father who has given us this Faith of God In Christ Whom He Has birthed in us.

Two different stewardships or the other word which creates such a stir, which I won't mention, one of mans faith in the Law that he thinks makes him righteous, the other that is Righteousness Himself that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/25 17:52Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Quote:

This is an often quoted illustration but I think it has some serious problems. This kind of faith is really based on past experience and probability and is a rational process. I think this is confidence rather than faith.

It may be often quoted but it is still true. It does not matter If I have sat in the chair 199 times I still exercise faith whether it is learned of or for the first time, but it is still my faith. How do we learn the Faith of Christ? I can't learn someone else's faith unless I and they are one. How can a man know the mind of another man? I don't have the mind of another man. I do have the Mind of Christ and His Faith is the Faith in me that makes us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, wise, righteous, sanctified and redeemed. That is what God The Father has made Him to be, that is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. My Spirit cannot learn perfection for my spirit is perfect, it is the Spirit of Christ. My mind is the only thing that the Holy Spirit can use to give us the Faith of The Son of by which the Born again live, to bring us the the Faith of, that it takes to "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect." These are our works by the Faith of Christ. "I will show you my faith by my works," The faith of the Son of God doing the works He said would be greater, not in scope but in numbers. May we all be filled by the Holy Spirit and the Faith of Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/25 21:50Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
It may be often quoted but it is still true. It does not matter If I have sat in the chair 199 times I still exercise faith whether it is learned of or for the first time, but it is still my faith.


I think we may have been over some of this ground before. I don't believe your illustration is a true illustration of faith. We just don't agree. I think your view mechanizes faith and makes it much less than the biblical expression.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/26 12:40Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think we may have been over some of this ground before. I don't believe your illustration is a true illustration of faith. We just don't agree. I think your view mechanizes faith and makes it much less than the biblical expression.



Agreed.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


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Mike Balog

 2006/2/26 13:56Profile
roadsign
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 Re:

Something to throw in here:

Taken from "The Nature of A God Sent Revival" by Duncan Campbell:

The Difference Between Human Faith and Saving Faith

Oh, there is a difference between human faith and saving faith!

I heard a prominent evangelist in Britain say something that really startled me. He said, "You exercise faith in a plane. You go into that plane and you exercise faith that that plane will take you to your destination. You go into a steamer and you exercise faith in the steamer and the captain and the crew to take you to your destination. Exercise that faith in the promises of God." Did you ever hear or listen to such nonsense? That is human faith! It is not given by God!

Oh, Calvin was right, and I love to quote him, although I am not an extreme Calvinist-though I'm a Highlander. Calvin said, "We are saved through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." God is in it! Surely that is what Paul tells us in that great passage. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ, He liveth in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the"-faith of Paul? Oh, no! That wouldn't get him very far. "I live by the faith of the Son of God!" The faith of God.

Harvests of Infidels or Believers?

Now I'm convinced of this, that if this truth was stressed, there would be less appeals. If this truth was stressed, our crusades and campaigns would not be producing harvests of infidels.

If men and women would but recognize that glorious truth-"They shall seek me and shall find me when they shall search for me with all their heart." That means that they may not find Him tonight. They may not find Him tomorrow night. They may not find Him next week. They may not find Him for a month or for six months, but if they are seeking God with all their hearts, they're going to find Him, or God is not true to His covenant engagement.

Oh, let's get this clear. It comes into revival. That is why I could count upon my five fingers all that I spoke to about their souls during the whole of the three years I was in the midst of it (1949-53).

You see, in the Northwest of Scotland, if you were to press yourself and your advice and your help upon an anxious soul, he would be inclined to believe that it was man's work...just man's work. And he would much rather be left to God so that God Himself would handle him. That is why we have known people for weeks and longer in distress of soul before light broke in upon them.


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Diane

 2006/2/26 15:28Profile
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 Re:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Faith that is born of flesh cannot be changed to spiritual faith unless it is from the Spirit of Christ born again in the believer.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

It is man's faith in the Law that he thinks he can be justified before God. Not so. It takes the Faith of the Son of God to bring us to justification unto redemption Whom God had made Christ our redemption. The Faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

Even the faith to believe earthly things are not believed when it comes to Jesus Christ. There is only one way to believe Heavenly things and that is by the Spirit of Christ that is born again in us.


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Phillip

 2006/2/27 1:52Profile
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 Re:

Roadsign wrote:


""Now I'm convinced of this, that if this truth was stressed, there would be less appeals. If this truth was stressed, our crusades and campaigns would not be producing harvests of infidels.""

I too believe that if the Gospel of Paul is preached, that Christ is in you and you now have all of Christ and you can do nothing to be more perfect in spirit, for that is Christ. We can grow in Christ in our mind by renewing it with the Help of The Holy Spirit teacher that Christ ask the Father of the Comforter. There are so many times that Paul expresses the In Christ position of the Believer, It is his greatest emphasis in his Gospel, in fact over 200 times and 146 of them are very plain with Christ in us as our new life.

If when I was saved, I would have been taught that I am perfect in Christ and I had a Teacher from God the Father that would bring to me all that Christ said and meant while He was hear on this earth and even more than that things greater than that.

John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Philippians 3:14-15 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How do we receive revelation? By the Holy Spirit. How are we to be minded? We have a prize, it is our High Calling of God in Christ Jesus.

These are the things that should be revealed to new believers, not what the Churches and man usually teach. Repent, be baptized, come to church, god to bible study, find out what gift God has given you, use that gift for your ministry, and on and on, etc. All this will make God happy with you and all these are works of the flesh that take faith of man in man, which things are not bad, but not the fulfilled Word of God Gospel.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to (fulfil) the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:



In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/27 5:14Profile
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 Re:

Hi Diane,

Quote:
I wonder how a modified/corrected presentation would change anything? Once people have something set into their minds, it has a tendency to stick forever.



One of my favorite methods of bible study is [u]word[/u] studies. I love to trace the history of a word from its first appearance in the scripture and see the various ways in which it is used in the bible. This is a form of 'topical' study, but a bit deeper than that. I have a great desire to understand the truths of scripture, and especially the 'big picture'.

I do not speak Hebrew or Greek. My understanding of each of those languages is limited. But in our day and age I don't have to be a scholar to do scholarly studies. There are many powerful tools to aid the type of study I refer to. Some folks don't realize that not only are their concordances for English words, but there are 'englishman's' concordance tools that can look for specific Hebrew and Greek words. With these tools you can select an english word from the bible, find out the corresponding Hebrew or Greek word, and then search the Old Testament for the Hebrew and the New Testament for the Greek. You can find root words and similar words that are variations, etc. to help color in you understanding. Most of all, you can find every time that Hebrew or Greek word is used from the first time to the last time and see all the various ways in which it is translated. Sometimes one Hebrew or Greek word may have been translated with 5 or more different English words. It is hard to link the passages together when you have lots of English words used for a single Hebrew or Greek word. But thank God for Englishmans concordances :-) .

Being pedantic seems like hair splitting sometimes, and Ron (Philologos) emphasizes being pedantic if you listen to his sermons. However, things are not just up for grabs and we cannot subjectively pour our meanings into words that are already defined in scripture. For example, being a Gen 'X'er we used to say things like, "That thing is BAD!" Did we mean it was evil? No, we meant it was [i]awesome[/i]. We hijacked the normal meaning of the word 'bad' and poured our new concept into it. Now, imagine someone from the 1800's listening to us talk. They had been sorely misled by our speech. Why? We had not used the word 'bad' pedantically and it caused confusion and a breakdown in [i]communication[/i]. Imagine how this happens when we take hold of Bible words and start pouring all sorts of non-biblical meanings into them. Not only do we begin a new doctrine that may well be unbiblical, but we overwrite (as it were) the true doctrine represented by the word. So, with dispensationalism, we have to deal with the precepts of the relatively new doctrine [u]AND[/u] we have to try and recover the doctrine that was lost when the new one hijacked the word.

I don't think 'dispensationalism' is going away anytime soon. It has a foothold in my circles. The problem will be recovering the true meaning of dispensationalism and using the term pedantically without causing further confusion in those used to thinking of times, seasons, workings, etc. . The best way to do this, I think, is simply by doing a word study of the use of the Greek words (as are shown in earlier posts). Lay them out and let the people decide. STUDY is the key.

Again, modern day tools level the playing field and we don't have to just take folks word for it or be intimidated by formal degrees and such. If I can study good enough to have a decent understanding of what is going on in the Hebrew and Greek, then I am at liberty. We can PROVE all things in our day and age and hold fast to that which is good.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/27 9:06Profile
philologos
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 an illustration of faith

Just a little comment about faith. I was researching for another thread and following the OT theme of 'laying on of hands'. I was interested in the fact that the word most often used in the OT for this is "sawmac" (Strongs Heb. 05564) which really means to 'lean hard'. There's a sermon for you! anyway... I was fascinated to discover the word used in this reference ...And the people [u]rested themselves upon[/u] the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. 2 Chr 32:8 The story is of the Assyrian attack on Jerusalem and the infamous Sennacherib. Hezekiah addressed the worried inhabitants of Jerusalem and 'they rested upon his words' If we put the more frequent translated word in its place we get "they leaned hard upon the words of Hezekiah". There can be few better examples of what genuine Bible faith really is. It is a response to a 'word'. It is not the result of reason or previous experience. It is not a logical conclusion drawn from evidence, it is the response to someone's word.

faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Biblical faith is not like sitting on chair that you have computed will support your weight. It is a response to a person. It is not the next step of three steps to salvation. It is a personal encounter with a person. So many, I fear, in our day believe they are safe because they have done the calculations but faith is not calculation it is response to personal revelation.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/27 15:05Profile





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