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CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
In my camp pre-trib is taught as if it were as true as the Trinity (no kidding). It is not up for debate.



I think it's funny that most pre-tribbers admit that there is more than one eschatalogical viewpoint, but have no idea of what they are, or where their origins are. I have a close friend who is a pre-tribber, and when I asked them for a could source in order to objectively study the teaching, she replied "the Book of Revelation", and when she finnally gave me a source, it was so full of theological and historical holes that even a new believer could smell a rat.

I don't say this to tear down the theory, in itself (although I don't believe it) but to say that I believe that most pre-tribbers are so afraid of persecution that they can't even begin to consider a post trib rapture, let alone pre-post-a-millenialism (and what is preterism anyway). I was shock to learn that "pre/post/mid" is only a side issue in the whole debate.

*Edit* Also isn't fancinating that many modern dispensationalist (although many of them have never heard of the word) believe that we are in the "Laodecian" church age, when Darby put the rapture between the Philadelphian and Laodecian age. Wouldn't that mean that their secret rapture has already occured?*Edit*


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/2/23 16:41Profile
TonyS
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Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Hello Aaron,

you wrote:

Quote:
I don't say this to tear down the theory, in itself (although I don't believe it) but to say that I believe that most pre-tribbers are so afraid of persecution that they can't even begin to consider a post trib rapture, let alone pre-post-a-millenialism (and what is preterism anyway).



You use the word “most pre-tribbers”, I cannot speak for “most” or “many”, but can only comment on my take on the pre-trib teaching. Scripture does teach that Christians indeed will go through times of persecution and tribulation. No question that the Godly will suffer persecution, but this is from man and the enemy of our very soul. The Great Tribulation as I understand it will be a time of the “Wrath of God.” And Thessalonians I understand indicates we as believers are not appointed to wrath, in fact the New Covenant’s message is Christ took that wrath in our stead.

In I Thess 4:18 we are told to “comfort one another with these words.” of course which refers to the passages speaking of the Lord descending from Heaven with a shout, and the believer being caught up to meet the Lord. In my mind it is hard to find comfort, or to comfort others with a message that says believers will suffer a terrible, horrible wrath first?

It is quite a unique eschatological area in that we all cannot be correct in our position whether pre, mid, post. But in this we can be certain, let the event be not of surprise, even though there will be surprise for someone as to the timing.

God bless Aaron,
tonys


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Tony Sexton

 2006/2/23 21:46Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Has anyone ever studied the Covenants and Dispensations and how they give understanding by being able to put God's Plan into perspective, that is His whole Plan for His Kingdom and having son's and daughter's in His House, I say son's and daughters as not to leave the Ladies out. In Christ we are all one, Children of God.


The Covenants and The Dispensations

Over the centuries believers have developed several methods of studying the Bible. Some study it systematically by topic, others use an inductive or deductive method to arrive at conclusions, still others divide the Bible into "stages" or sections to make it more manageable, many study guides outline studies by book, chapter, or topic, and yet others study it dispensationally. Although there is merit in all of these methods, studying the Bible dispensationally with the covenants marking the divisions is the easiest and surest way one can see the various systems God has placed in the Scriptures and get a sufficient understanding of what He is doing. The Bible's divisions do not neatly divide between books, chapters, or subjective "stages," so the best method to get the overall picture of God's program is to study the Bible using its own terms of "covenant" and "dispensation," letting them mark the divisions.
Defining the Terms
A covenant is generally defined as a mutual agreement between two parties. In the Scriptures some covenants are unconditional and continue regardless of the conduct of man, while others are conditioned on obedience. Each covenant God makes with man (with few exceptions) marks the beginning of a new dispensation. The dispensation carries on the doctrines God established with the covenant.
Another word for covenant in the Bible is "testament," thus the 27 books known as the New Testament proclaim the new covenant God has made with man through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Technically, much of the first four books of the New Testament (the gospels) refer to events that occurred under the old covenant of the Law, but the atonement Christ made with his death and resurrection as revealed in the gospels made possible the new covenant of grace in effect today.

A dispensation is usually defined as a "period of time" in which God works with and in His people in a particular way, but this is only partially true. Calling a dispensation primarily a period of time will not bear up under close scrutiny of the Scriptures. In the Bible the term "dispensation" refers to a manner, method, or particular arrangement of dealing with people God has chosen to dispense during a period of time, not the time period itself. Usually the length of time is not emphasized or even mentioned, it is the doctrines God has established to be valid during that time that distinguishes one dispensation from another. In short, a dispensation is a certain mode of testing God has dispensed to man, while a covenant is a contract or promise between God and man.

The term "dispensation" is found four times in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10, 3:2; Col. 1:25), and each passage makes it clear that God is dispensing something. In Eph. 3:2 it is "grace" itself that is dispensed, not a period of time called the "grace of God." God revealed through Paul how He was dispensing His grace to all men by making a free salvation available to them in Jesus Christ. This is contrasted with the Dispensation of the Law where God gave mainly law (though grace can be readily found in every dispensation). Under the Law obedience was demanded, obey the laws and live; break them and die (Gal. 3:10-13). In this Church Age of Grace, however, it is not obey the law but only receive Christ to be saved. In a nutshell, God simply uses covenants and dispensations to deal with man in different manners under different circumstances to teach and show him things about himself and his Creator.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/25 3:56Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

The Edenic Covenant and The Dispensation of

Innocence:

Obviously, all things begin with God, and God's dealings with man began the moment He created Adam. Genesis chapters 1-3 tell us God didn't create Adam to only lounge in a beautiful garden, He gave him specific commands to obey and jobs to occupy him. This contract between God and Adam is the first covenant between God and any man; it is commonly known as the Edenic Covenant. In this covenant God supplied Adam with many blessings, among them life, a perfect body, a perfect environment, a world without pain, hunger, sickness or death, and also a wife. All Adam (and Eve) had to do was to keep six conditions God had laid down to keep the covenant in effect with all its blessings. God told them to:
1. Multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28).
2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28).
3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28).
4. Have only a vegetable diet (Gen. 1:29).
5. Dress and keep the garden they were put in (Gen. 2:15).
6. Abstain from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17).

This covenant remained in force until Adam broke it by eating of the forbidden tree. God kept his part but man did not keep his. A trend that will sadly continue through every dispensation.

The Edenic Covenant introduced the Dispensation of Innocence. The doctrines or requirements God established with the Edenic Covenant (above) expressed the kind of behavior He desired from Adam while it was in force. Remember, a covenant is an agreement or contract between God and man, it may be conditional (as this covenant) or unconditional. On the other hand a dispensation is the particular method of dealing WITH man God works under (the doctrines He has dispensed to be valid during that time), and the manner of behavior He requires OF man during the time period which began with a covenant.

The Dispensation of Innocence is so named because Adam was created as an innocent creature and had no natural inclination towards evil or righteousness. Although Adam was not a "sinner" until he ate of the tree of knowledge, neither was he righteous in God's sight. He was merely an innocent, untested creature who had no evil in him to separate him from God, nor any righteousness in him to commend him to God. Before he fell Adam was in a kind of moral "limbo" which God apparently never intended him to stay in long.

Some believers mistakenly believe the condition Adam was in at creation is the position a born again believer has before God in this present dispensation. They think salvation only puts them back like Adam was before the fall; that is, in an innocent state. If this were true a Christian could lose his salvation! Adam fell from his innocent position! This is a good example of failure to properly divide the Scriptures, and the Christians who hold this view are robbing themselves of some of the most precious truths concerning New Testament salvation. More on this later.

With this case of Adam alone we can already see how dispensations differ from each other. There is very little the Dispensation of Innocence has in common with any other dispensation. Nowhere in the dispensations of Family, Law, Grace, etc., does God command anyone to subdue the earth, keep a garden, eat only vegetables, or not eat of a certain tree. These doctrines were valid ONLY as long as the covenant and following dispensation were in force. When Adam broke the covenant, its doctrines were superseded by the next one.

When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge he died spiritually (Eph.2:1) and acquired an evil nature, but God in an act of mercy and grace did not yet allow him to die physically. His body did begin on its trek toward the grave, but God quickly made another covenant with Adam which contained a promise of ultimate.

Next, The Adamic Covenant and The Dispensation of Conscience.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/25 4:00Profile
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 Re: God's dealings with man, not just time periods

Phillip, I've been enjoying your explanations of the dispensations. These words especially caught my attention:

Quote:
A dispensation is usually defined as a "period of time" in which God works with and in His people in a particular way, but this is only partially true. Calling a dispensation primarily a period of time will not bear up under close scrutiny of the Scriptures. In the Bible the term "dispensation" refers to a manner, method, or particular arrangement of dealing with people God has chosen to dispense during a period of time, not the time period itself.


If this is true, then it must make sense on a real-life level, not just in theological theory.
Might I make an attempt here, using myself as an example:

For most of my life I did not live in the "dispensation of grace". I lived according the Old Covenant. So it was pointless to hear that "we are now in the age of grace". That was and is not true in reality. Not only myself, but the vast majority of religious observers live by the old covenant - worshipping according to place and form - localized buildings, religious rituals, rules, etc rather than in spirit and truth.

Reality and theological theory do not jive.

There came a point in my life when God ushered me into his grace. And the difference is beyond what words could describe. I now understand why Jesus said that you can't put new wine into old wine skins.

There will always be that tension as we try to fit ourselves into the existing old wine skins after God's spirit is birthed wthin us.

I look forward to reading your other "dispensations".

Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/25 9:32Profile
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 Re:

Christinyou's

Quote:
The term "dispensation" is found four times in the Scriptures (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10, 3:2; Col. 1:25), and each passage makes it clear that God is dispensing something.

The English word dispensation' is used only four times but the underlying Greek word is used much more frequently. see earlier posting.

Although there have indeed been many 'administrations' of God's purposes on earth there has always only been one way of acceptance with God; by faith. Some forms of 'dispensationalism' undermine this truth and create a salvation by 'keeping of the law' which was never God's intention in any dispensation, and later a salavtion which is achieved by membership of a particular race. Salvation was always to be the gift of grace and consequently was always received by faith. ... it is of faith, that it might be by grace... KJV Rom 4:16)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/25 10:00Profile
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 Re:

Romans 4:14-17 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Every thing we believe is of faith, be it Law or Grace. I believe that the chair I am going to sit on will hold me. As I grow in understand and experience my faith grows, now I can climb a ladder and reach greater heights. The Word is the same, I grow by the spiritual faith that has been given me. As it is stated in scripture Israel learned from precept to precept and line upon line, which is the only way and unregenerated person can live. Christ came to change this and He states when speaking to Paul that He came to give us Faith that would build upon the corner stone, yea even the Chief Corner Stone, Jesus Christ Himself, by His Faith we will grow in heavenly things not just earthly.
Truly we are sanctified by the Faith of Christ that is in us by His birth in us.

Acts 26:15-18 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Pretty powerful statement the we now live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We cannot build upon our earthly faith to reach new birth, we must build upon The Faith of the one that is birthing us. It is His Faith that is now in us not just the Faith of Abraham all men have.

The dispensation of Faith by Grace.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/25 12:24Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Quote:
Although there have indeed been many 'administrations' of God's purposes on earth there has always only been one way of acceptance with God; by faith.



By faith, Enoch was taken away (Heb 11:5), By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear... (Hebrews 11:7), By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed... (Hebrews 11:8), By faith, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau... (Hebrews 11:20), By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel... (Hebrews 11:22), By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter... (Hebrews 11:24), etc., etc.

It seems that the individuals mentioned in Hebrews 11 were all trusting in God to the point where it affected their behavior. They all had a certain amount of revelation to respond to. It seems that that revelation increased as time went on; therefore the responsibility increased.

This causes me to look at the whole 'dispensation' thing from a whole different prespective. If dispensation essentially means 'stewardship' then it helps me get my head around the seriousness with which the men who preached the Gospel in the 1st century had done so. They were faithful to communicate the Gospel and handled it with supreme regard. Is it not ironic that while the whole 'dispensational' teachings were surfacing the 'supreme regard' for the presentation of the Gospel was proportionally deminishing? Now when we think about [i]dispensation[/i] we don't think about our accountability to rightly present the Gospel- but some obscure doctrines that few can agree upon?

Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)? I made a statement in the Sunday School class once about it being 100 years since the Gospel was rightly preached. And why should folk care about it when the whole concept of 'stewardship' (dispensation) of the Gospel and its having been committed unto us has been replaced by times and days and seasons of God's workings? Pretty soon there is no basis with which to even have a redress because the word defining the concept has been hijacked. :-?









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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/25 13:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Now when we think about dispensation we don't think about our accountability to rightly present the Gospel- but some obscure doctrines that few can agree upon?

Quote:
Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)?

Quote:
Pretty soon there is no basis with which to even have a redress because the word defining the concept has been hijacked.



Hi Robert, I am way out of my league here admittedly and this is just a comment from the peanut gallery ... But my suspicion is that this like so many other words have suffered the same fate; "Predestination" being perhaps chief amongst them.

Had hesitated a reply earlier due to it's length, still seem torn by either silence or long ramblings, have yet to find the middle to get an expression across. But I think you are on to something here.


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Mike Balog

 2006/2/25 13:44Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: pedantic

Quote:
Maybe this is taking things too far, but, what if we just retake the word 'dispensation' and start presenting the topic biblically (pendantically biblical)? I made a statement in the Sunday School class once about it being 100 years since the Gospel was rightly preached. And why should folk care about it when the whole concept of 'stewardship' (dispensation) of the Gospel and its having been committed unto us has been replaced by times and days and seasons of God's workings?


I'm way out of your league here for sure, but I am curious how you would re-present this word "dispensation/sterwardship" in a way that would be helpful.

I suspect that there is a bigger reason for focus on dates, etc - which cannot be blamed on the "dispensation" package/promotion. Just look at the hearts of man - we are always bent to stray away from the truths of our purpose, reason God called us.... Finding an appealing package is always an attraction. Satan knows just what will work. If dispensationalism never came into being, something else likely would have.
I wonder how a modified/corrected presentation would change anything? Once people have something set into their minds, it has a tendency to stick forever.

I looked up the word pedantic (not pendantic, as you spelled it) because I had no clue what it means. According the the dictionary it means: marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects [syn: academic, donnish]
I'm so happy I learned a new word today. It would be interesting to see where strictly biblical usage of the word takes us?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/25 15:29Profile





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