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 Could someone interpret these verses ?

[b][u]Thanks in advance ![/u]


For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit.[/b]

 2006/2/5 22:02
Sheol
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Joined: 2006/2/6
Posts: 1


 Re: Could someone interpret these verses ?

[size=large][color=000000][font=Arial]Hebrews 5:11-14 (English Standard Version)[/font][/color][/size]
[size=medium][color=000000][font=Arial]"Problem with Immaturity" and a "Warning Against Apostasy" ("renunciation of faith" or regression)[/font][/color][/size]
11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing (slow to understand). 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
[size=large][color=000000][font=Arial]Hebrews 6:1-12[/font][/color][/size]
1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
9Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation. 10For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
-------------------------------------------------
Hoped this helped. I think using different "literal translations" and commentaries will help you get the full meaning from scripture. Study brings knowledge, awareness of truth and enlightenment. Hopefully discerning wisdom will follow close behind.

 2006/2/6 1:52Profile









 Re:

Haha, I think this is funny. The Lord had me study these scripture IN-DEPTHLY. Like I've spent a little below 100 hours on these. No joke. And I've put the 'completion' of these study to the side for almost a year.

Now. Before I say, what I think the Lord says about these scriptures. MeAgain you put them in context that I studied them, that's why i think this is pretty funny and hey maybe i'll learn something in these verses.

Vs.11-14 in chapter 5. Basically shows that they are really just not maturing. And the writer of Hebrews is mad at it. They should've grown by now, but have become dull instead. (Dull because they are not walking with the Lord....you can't hear God if your walking away from Him **there should be scriptures running through your head I don't need to quote any**)

Then Ch.6:1-3

6 foundational things that EVERY Christian should understand.
1. Faith Toward God
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by water (washings, after alot of time looking in different scriptures, i'm convinced that 'washings' is translated rightly and it means 'baptism by water' in our language)
4. Baptism by Spirit (in other verses, in the bible, is called 'laying on of the hands' having the same results of 'receiveing/baptised in/with the Spirit)
5. Resurrection of the Dead
6. Eternal Judgement

The first 2 are intial salvation. The second 2 are after conversion. (they should be done as soon as possible). The last 2 put me for a loop. Because 'resurrection of the dead' has to do with the 'rapture' ideas.

So that's briefly my findings. Not too much stuff for studing so long. haha. It's BEEN a while.

I hope other's share their ideas. No matter how contrary to mine.

 2006/2/6 2:35
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Could someone interpret these verses ?

May I suggest a simple interpretation?

This passage marks a division. Everything before it is "kids stuff". Although it's necessary, it's best to get it out of the way quickly and move onto the rest.

The rest is the practicalities of how it all works.

In other words, the first part defines obedience, the rest will make you obedient (ie, perfect).


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/2/6 5:45Profile
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Posts: 901
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 Re:

Quote:

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
6 foundational things that EVERY Christian should understand.
1. Faith Toward God
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by water (washings, after alot of time looking in different scriptures, i'm convinced that 'washings' is translated rightly and it means 'baptism by water' in our language)
4. Baptism by Spirit (in other verses, in the bible, is called 'laying on of the hands' having the same results of 'receiveing/baptised in/with the Spirit)
5. Resurrection of the Dead
6. Eternal Judgement

The first 2 are intial salvation. The second 2 are after conversion. (they should be done as soon as possible). The last 2 put me for a loop. Because 'resurrection of the dead' has to do with the 'rapture' ideas.



This is quite good, but may I offer a slightly different slant?
The first three address the past.
The fourth present
The Last two Futrue.

[u]Past[/u]
Repent: action on a desire to turn from sin.
Believe: where we turn from "to" (ie, I used to doubt Him, now I believe Him).
Baptisms: active transition from one to another. (Water: From sin. Holy Spirit: Into obedience).

[u]Present[/u]
Laying on of hands: Comission (as opposed to doing your own thing. Ie, submission)

[u]Future[/u]
Ressurecction: Future hope.
Judgement: Accountability.

It is interestin to note that when the Holy Spirit (the comforter) comes, He convists the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement.

Also check out Paul's "Mars Hill" sermon in Acts 17, for more on this theme.


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Aaron Ireland

 2006/2/6 6:02Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
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 Re: Could someone interpret these verses ?

Good stuff so far. I would add that the broader passage in Hebrews 5-6 clearly has spiritual leadership as one of the points in view. It speaks of the qualifications of leadership and how there should be evidence that God has called one to such a position. This was true also for Jesus, our High Priest. Even though Jesus was a son he learned his lesson the hard way , surely it is no different for us. When he had matured, he became an inspiring example of spiritual freedom to those who come under his discipline, having been approved by God as "a spiritual leader, a sort of Melchisedec."

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2006/2/6 9:47Profile
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Posts: 6566
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 Re:

I think it is often helpful to keep in mind the overall purpose of a passage of scripture. The Letter to the Hebrews was written to people who were in danger of 'drawing back'.“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
(Heb. 10:38, KJVS) and hence the admonition to 'draw near'.

This has some bearing on this passage too. Note how that state described in the passage is the result of something that has happened to them, rather than something that has not happened to them. Confused? 1 Corinthians is written to a people where something had [u]not[/u] happened to them; they had [u]not[/u] grown up. But Galatians and Hebrews are written to a people to whom something has happened: they had gone backwards. The point is seen in “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and [u]are become[/u] such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.”
(Heb. 5:12, KJVS) This is not just lack of progression, this is regression.

As we read on we discover that the thing that had 'happened' to them was the result of neglect. Their senses had not been exercised to discern both good and evil. They had become lazy and were in danger of settling for the old comfort zones of ceremonial activity. Consequently, even although they had once had an appetite for strong meat they were now back onto their old childhood diet.

Paul in Galatians describes Israel under the old covenant as being in a state of chlldhood. “Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a [u]child[/u], differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when [u]we were children[/u], were in bondage under the elements of the world:”
(Gal. 4:1-3, KJVS) (see the contrast between the 'we' of old Israel and the 'ye' of the Gentile believers in Gal 5:6) Old Israel's experience had been one of being under tutors and governors. ie it had been the preparation for something so much greater. That preparation had its 'kindergarten' with elementary aspects of learning (Gal 4:3) The word 'elements' in Gal 4:4,9 really means the first steps of getting something into order, almost like learning our ABC and a basic building block of much that was to come.

These basic building blocks of truth were given uniquely to the people of Israel. (Rom 3:2) ...“unto them were committed the [u]oracles[/u] of God.”
(Rom. 3:2, KJVS) The word translated 'elements' in Gal 4:4,9 is the same word translated 'principles' in “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the [u]first principles of the oracles of God[/u]; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” (Heb. 5:12, KJVS)

The people had been given the first words in their vocabulary for all that God wanted to say subsequently. (This is why the OT is so important in the study of the NT) I know this will be controversial but all the foundations of NT theology are to be found in the OT, and the writer to the Hebrews now quotes the OT foundations. All of these 'foundations' are to be found in God's revelation to Israel'...

[i]“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of...
1. repentance from dead works, and of
2. faith toward God,
3. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of
4. laying on of hands, and of
5. resurrection of the dead, and of
6. eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” (Heb. 6:1-3, KJVS) All these foundations had been laid in the OT. It is time, says the writer, to move on...


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/6 11:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is quite good, but may I offer a slightly different slant?
The first three address the past.
The fourth present
The Last two Futrue.



Wow, I almost thought the exact same thing.

but 2 - 2- 2. Because in Acts the apostles TRIED to put those two on the same level. And in a sense showed that they WERE basic principles.

I need to 'rechew' brother Ron's post. Alot of it flows with stuff I learned in the past, but also new ideas.

 2006/2/6 12:54









 Re: Wow ... I smell steak on the grill ....

After I read these posts, it reminded me of something that happened to my funny brother.

He was standing in a line at some Hamburger joint, and the line wasn't moving ... so the guy in front of my brother, turned around and said ... [b]
"We be waitin' for the meat to come down."[/b] ... in a really deep voice.

I'll never forget that story or that saying.

These verses that Paul wrote, remind me of that saying.

'Thank you' guys for your replies ... but I'm hoping this won't end just yet, because I feel the steak has just been thrown on the grill and I smell it cooking, and I'm really getting hungry now .... and That's neat. In the natural, I have no appetite at all, so this is sort of neat to smell steak on a thread ... :-D

I'm hoping those 3 dots at the end of Ron's post means he's gonna add more to this and especially really do a Ron Job on that last part he wrote on 6:1-3 and even give more on his take on 'strong meat'.


(We be waitin' for the meat to come down :)


'Good Stuff' is right brother(s) :-D

Thank Youse.

 2006/2/6 13:22
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I need to 'rechew' brother Ron's post. Alot of it flows with stuff I learned in the past, but also new ideas.


Some more to 're-chew' or 'eschew' as the mood takes you. ;-)

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of...
1. repentance from dead works, and of
2. faith toward God,
3. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of
4. laying on of hands, and of
5. resurrection of the dead, and of
6. eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” (Heb. 6:1-3, KJVS)1. The first two are pretty easy to find in the OT but the locus classicus of 'repentance' is Jonah 3. This is how Christ 'defined' repentance. (Matt 12:41)
2. and Abraham, of course, is the bible's definition of faith. The first time the word is used (the verb of the noun) is Gen 15:6

but what of the rest?

[b]3. "the doctrine of baptisms"?[/b]

this is a mistranslation and has had some serious consequences. There are two similar but quite different words in the NT

a) [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/9/1139588140-4638.html]baptism[u]a[/u][/url] .Matt 3:7; 20:22-23; 21:25; Mark 1:4; 10:38-39; 11:30; Luke 3:3; 7:29; 12:50; 20:4; Acts 1:22; 10:37; 13:24; 18:25; 19:3-4; Rom 6:4; Eph 4:5; Col 2:12; 1Pet 3:21

but the reference in Hebrews is not 'baptism[u]a[/u]' but to

b)[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/9/1139588220-7449.html]baptism[u]os[/u][/url] which is not 'baptism' but 'washing'. This word is used just 4 times in the NTMark 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the [b]washing[/b] of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the [b]washing[/b] of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of [b]baptisms[/b], and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers [b]washings[/b], and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. It is one of the vagaries of the KJV to have translated it by two different words in the letter to the Hebrews which puts us 'off the scent' a little. The second reference in Hebrews makes it very clear how the writer is using the word. Modern translations have frequently corrected this:“of [the] doctrine of [b]washings[/b], and of imposition of hands, and of resurrection of [the] dead, and of eternal judgment;” (Heb 6:2 DRBY)

"and of instruction about [b]washings[/b], the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (footnotes: 1. Hebrews 6:2 Or baptisms (that is, cleansing rites)" Heb 6:2 ESV"

"of instruction about [b]washings[/b] and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." Heb 6:2 NASB

"teaching about [b]ritual washings[/b], laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." Heb 6:2 HCSBSo, this is probably not the best verse to use to support the various Pentecostal/Charismatic view of 'many baptisms'. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/10 11:43Profile





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