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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is sin?

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 Re: What is sin?

Quote:
Every man has a conscience that God has given them, right?

Hi PP,

I know there was a thread on conscience, recently, but why would anyone need to preach the gospel, if what can be known about God is self-evident?

 2006/2/8 6:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Dorcas,

Quote:
Thus, you are saying (effectively) 'God created Adam with the tendancy to forsake Him already in place - in his being'.....?



I think what the doctrine states is that man has no inclination or 'tendancy' to forsake God at all, either before or [u]after[/u] the fall. Man is free to choose whether he/she will serve God or not in the here and now- saved or lost. Finney took this line as well as some others. I do not agree with Finney in that matter. There was a point in which Sin entered the human race and began corrupting the image of God in man. I [u]do[/u] believe in prevenient grace (so-called). This means that God graces a sinner with the ability to respond rightly to Him when He draws them by His Spirit. When God says 'come' you can and you must; but I believe that this is an active move on God's part and not some static continual declaration that is just set in concrete. There are times when God will draw and it is [u]then[/u] that we can and must respond rightly.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/8 9:04Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, what does the bible mean when it says "they are condemned already..." jimp

 2006/2/8 10:08Profile









 Re: What is sin?

Robert,

Thanks for that explanation. I had not realised freecd is expounding a known doctrine and I hope he will answer how it is that [i]no-one[/i] chooses not to forsake God, if [i]everyone[/i] has 'free will'. To me, there would need to be some people who had never forsaken God, for that theory to hold water - especially since it doesn't seem to be irrefutably supported by scripture.

jimp,

Please take a look at John 16:9 and see if it answers your question partly? What do you think, now?

 2006/2/8 10:44









 Re:


I understand perfectly what freecd is saying.It's quite simple, we have a free will and with that free will some will choose to obey and some will not.
Sometimes it's just best to give it a rest and listen to what others are saying.

 2006/2/8 10:54
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, must we sin? what is sin? free will? is it normal for christians to sin?original sin adam or me? all of these posts are centering on the problems(mt. sinai)but very little is said about the salution... Jesus Christ and Him crucified.(mt Zion)The zadok priesthood were not allowed to wear any wool;only linen ephods, so they would not sweat. sweat is the outward sign of the efforts of man and the result of the sin of adam; a curse.man has very little to do with his holiness or his salvation,sanctification etc. lest he boast.God is the potter and i am the clay. He chose me, i did not choose Him. he sought me and bought me with His redeeming blood. jimp

 2006/2/8 13:16Profile









 Re: What is sin?

Quote:
understand perfectly what freecd

Hi Rebecca,

To paraphrase several posts, freecd does not believe in [i]original sin[/i]. His points about free will are an alternative doctrine. My concern about free will is that it's a figment of all our imaginations, until we have been released from sin, although I accept that we have a will - I just dispute the extent of its feedom..... However, it may be enough to choose God.

 2006/2/8 13:22









 I do believe in original sin!

James 1:13-16 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren."

THIS IS THE TRUE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN. Your sin results from your own free choice. It is truly your own creation.

Will anyone be in hell for something that they did not choose or could not help?


 2006/2/8 14:01
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: I do believe in original sin!

Hi freecd,

Quote:
Will anyone be in hell for something that they did not choose or could not help?



No. Noone will be in hell for any other sins than their own.

However, what we have been driving at in our discussions across several threads on this topic now is that 'Sin' entered the human race. The passage in James 1 that you cited is true, it shows us the pattern of why one commits sins. This does not take into account the passages that deal with John 8 and Romans 6-9.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, [u]Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin[/u]. 35 And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. 36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed: yet ye seek to kill me, [u]because my word hath not free course in you.[/u] 38 I speak the things which I have seen with my Father: and [u]ye also do the things which ye heard from your father.[/u] 39 They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 [u]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do.[/u] He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he [u]speaketh of his own[/u]: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. (John 8 ASV)

Notice that Satan is not just the father of [i]lies[/i] as we generally understand this passage, but the father of 'liars.' This has to do with a person's nature. As surely as Satan has a Sin Nature- all who were born in Adam also have that nature. The nature of Satan is to commit sin and rebel against God. He is still responsible for his actions, but it is his 'meat' to rebel against God. It is what fulfills him.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/8 14:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The soul who sins will die.

Quote:
"What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, but the children's teeth are set on edge'? As I live," declares the Lord God, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel any more. Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.



This, of course, is the prelude to Ezekiel's teaching on the New Covenant in the later chapters and if you use some other versions you will see the sense of this in the text“What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.” (Ezek 18:2-3 KJVS)

“What mean ye, ye who use this proverb of the land of Israel, saying, [The] fathers eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? [As] I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, ye shall not have any more to use this proverb in Israel.”
(Ezek 18:2-"3 DRBY) The whole point of this passage is that something was going to change. not.. any more" implies a change and by no means indicates

However, this passage is not referring to 'original sin' but the hereditary [i]consequences of sin[/i] which were the special 'curse' which rested on the people of Israel. I don't know about others on this side of the arguement but I do not regard 'original sin' as something I inherited from my father but something which I received direct 'in Adam'. This part of the topic is usually referred to as 'the transmission'. This passage is a serious problem for those who believe in 'generational curses' but not for those who believe in congenital sin.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/8 20:10Profile





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