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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is sin?

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 Re: Sin is a crime!

freecd said

Quote:
Every sinner has committed two evils. These are, forsaking God and building a system that tries to quench their spiritual thirst and desire.

I'm not going to try to persuade you - I'll leave that to others - I just wanted to say how much I identify with the vast majority of your post above - very many things you say are sooo well thought through and accurate. Sigh. But, the axe has been laid to the root of the trees. Amen!

 2006/2/3 11:12
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: Sin is a crime!

Freecd,

How do you interpret

Rom 5:19 [b]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners[/b], so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

?


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/3 11:31Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, sin is everything we see in ourselves when we are in the prescence of the thrice holy God. jimp

 2006/2/3 11:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Sin is a crime!

freecd's

Quote:
Does a 'single' sin make a man a sinner? Yes!!!

Is being a 'sinner' something which we are born with? NO!! This is unbiblical.

I have to admit that I knew you believed this but felt it was important to make it clear in the public discussion. You are in good company of course, George Fox, Charles Finney, Winkie Pratney, Paris Reidhead, Roger Forster... all believed as you do.

In the 'blue corner' we have Tertullian, Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Whitfield, Oswald Chambers, A W Tozer, MacArthur and another group of godly men.

I am not one to put a great store in tradition but the 'orthodox' view has been so settled for so many years that Wesley's comment 'that those who believe in it are no better than pagans' is understandable.

OK, we can continue to discuss but the gulf is very wide.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 12:05Profile
Quickend
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Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42


 Re: What is sin?


Sin is disobediance to God that is born out of knowledge.


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Robert.High

 2006/2/3 12:06Profile









 Re:

edit - added verse.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Look closely at this verse. If Adam's sin made all of mankind sinners then Christ's obedience made all righteous. The words are exactly the same. What is true of Adam must also be true of Christ; there is no other possibility. If you believe that Adam's sin made others sinful, then you have to believe that Christ made others righteous. But there is no free choice in either case. This is pure universalism. Everyone will be saved no matter what. If we have no choice in being made a sinner, then we have no choice in being made righteous.

It is true that we will all physically die as a result of Adam's sin, but our own free will is what determines our eternal destiny.


 2006/2/3 13:01









 Re: What is sin?

Quote:
It is true that we will all physically die as a result of Adam's sin, but our own free will is what determines our eternal destiny.

Not wishing to be overly contentious, is not the meaning of these words:

'.. that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were [b]all their lifetime subject to [u]bondage[/u][/b]. (Heb 2)

- that 'all' means 'all'....... Not a few seconds, weeks or months or years [i]missing[/i] - that is, until the first conscious 'choice' to sin.

I underlined 'bondage' because it suggests there may be no 'free' will, until the person is released from bondage.... See what I mean?

Because of the bondage from which I've been delivered personally, some of which was not my choice and some of which was and some of which I didn't realise I had a choice and I just drifted into it, not knowing where I was going, I believe there are several reasons some bondage may cling tighter than others... But this is not to say that the death of Jesus Christ was not as effective to break each one as any other... simply, the person being released may experience a sense of being [i]more[/i] tied by one thing, than another, even though it is equally easy for Jesus to release from all.

 2006/2/3 13:14
Quickend
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Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42


 Re:

Perhaps because I am unfamiliar with the exact termonology of some of the well established belifes and srciptual interpitations this come as a shock to me. (continual propitiation?) I supose that I have known for somtime that people thought this way. I just never knew the precise term that discribed it. When I began to read up on this concept,I felt like I was geting sick(I'm not just saying this, I realy did) so, is this how people are able to claim a holy life dispite how they actualy live? WOW!


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Robert.High

 2006/2/3 13:28Profile









 If we are disconnected from Him it is by free choice.

God is the only true source of love, truth, righenesss, joy, and peace.

Salvation itself is the very life and essence of the triune God. This life is not something that God gives but is Himself, Christ and the Holy Spirit living and dwelling within the believer.

There is no true life or salvation outside God or without Him. A selfish person is dead because he has cut himself off from the life of God. The life and operation of God living and working within a person produce all that is grace, redemption and salvation. A person will never experience this life without having God's rule and reign continually over him.

Many make a fatal mistake about Christianity by taking, receiving and embracing the outward teaching of spiritual things as the truth and essence of religion. They perform religious activities and form ideas and opinions about Christ and religion. By doing this they reject Christ as their Savior and only true source of light, love, truth, life and salvation.

Rom. 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

Many think that peace, righteousness, and joy are just things that Christ distributes or gives out, but for a kingdom to exist, you must have a king. Only when we are united to King Jesus, do these privileges actually exist. These are not something that Christ just gives away then departs. They only exist as the result of His continual presence within us. I don't think I can emphasize enough the fact that Christ's LIFE can only exist as a result of Christ's actual presence within us. LIFE is not something that Christ just declares or gives out and then leaves. Christ Himself is the only true source of LIFE and we must always be totally dependent on His continual presence within us. Christ ONLY imparts LIFE to us as he lives within us.

When a light bulb is connected to electricity the bulb produces both light and heat. This light and heat only exist as long as the power flows. The light and heat are only the result of being properly connected to the power source. If the electricity is disconnected the light goes out instantly and the bulb will grow cold. The believer is like the light bulb, he can not produce his own light or heat without the electricity flowing. Christ is the believers "electricity" and only true source of spiritual power. Only when we are properly connected to HIM will we experience HIS true life, righteousness, peace and joy. If we are disconnected from Him it is by free choice.

1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that does not have the Son of God does not have life."

John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that bears not fruit He takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. If any man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

 2006/2/3 13:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

freecd's

Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.???Look closely at this verse. If Adam's sin made all of mankind sinners then Christ's obedience made all righteous. The words are exactly the same. What is true of Adam must also be true of Christ; there is no other possibility. If you believe that Adam's sin made others sinful, then you have to believe that Christ made others righteous.

It might if there were no difference between 'were' and 'shall'.
In the first instance 'were made' the word is "kathistEmi in the Aorist tense. The Aorist is often referred to as a punctiliar tense; a completed action rather than one linked to a process. The sense is carried in Youngs Literal Translation as "through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners:" This links the 'being made sinners' with the one act of disobedience.

In the second instance 'shall be made' (not 'made' as you quoted it) is "kathistEmi", this is the future tense. So now that we have straightened out the tenses how about your charge that this is 'universalism'?

The 'old man' has an identity, a history and a future. The 'new man' too has an identity, a history and a future. The entire human race, is by first birth, "in Adam" and we know that “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”(1Cor. 15:22, KJVS) "in Adam" is to be subject to the Death which entered into Adam as a result of his disobedience. Regeneration takes a man out of Adam and puts him 'in Christ'. 'in Christ' and ONLY 'in Christ' shall all be made alive. To say that all those 'in Christ' will be made righteous is 'pure universalism' is 'pure nonsense'. Youngs Literal Translation is informative too:“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.”
(Rom. 5:19, YNG)I don't see how you can come to the conclusions you do if you put the verse back into its context:“for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one — Jesus Christ. So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of ‘Righteous’ [it is] to all men to justification of life; for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.”
(Rom. 5:17-19, YNG)Paul says quite plainly here that 'through the trespass of 'the one' (ie Adam) 'death reigned'. This reign of 'sin and death' began with Adam's first trespass, "sin entered, and death through sin". Adam is said earlier in Rom 5:14 to be a 'type' of him that was to come. In what sense? Christ is the head of the race of the 'new man', Adam was the head of the race of the 'old man'. Have you counted the times in this passage that Paul refers to 'the one'? The human race is what it is, constitutionally, as a result of 'the one' and his 'one offence'. The 'new man' is what it is, constitutionally, in Christ.

Many years ago I was trying to understand the Greek word regeneration and was trying to find an illustration to share with some young people. The Greek word is 'palingenesis' and I was looking through an English dictionary for the prefix 'palin'. Not being a biologist I was amazed to find that the word 'palingenesis' is in my ordinary English dictionary. It is the word used by biologists to explain a disputed feature of 'evolutionary development'. (I won't go into that I just wanted the word) I came across this fascinating definitionpalingenesis |?palin?jen?sis| |?pøl?n?d??n?s?s| |?pal?n?d??n?s?s|
noun
1 Biology the exact reproduction of ancestral characteristics in ontogenesis.
2 rebirth or regeneration.That is exactly what regeneration is in spiritual terms; an exact reproduction of ancestral characteristics. By first birth, my 'ancestral characteristics' was a nature at variance with the will of God. 'Adam' had been 'exactly reproduced' in me. BUT by the miracle of regeneration I have received a 'new heredity' and Christ reproduced 'in me' has worked an exact reproduction of ancestral characteristics. In me, by his grace, the 'shall be made' has already begun. Adam is a 'type' of Christ. I was 'in Adam' not I am 'in Christ'.


Quote:
It is true that we will all physically die as a result of Adam's sin, but our own free will is what determines our eternal destiny.

I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 16:01Profile





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