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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Must we sin?

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 Re:

Hia Rebecca,

This is gonna be a hard one for me to answer.

Like I said, we love Nee, in fact, we keep giving out 'Release in the Spirit' and today my husband had to go order another to replace his cuz I wouldn't give up mine (again) ... Ha.

But, this old guy we know, that I mentioned above ... explains Agape in such a way, that I could never do right now. At least not when I'm not feeling Really perky (to say the least).

But he speaks of an "experience" of when God's Love hits you like ten thousand tons of bricks ... but he doesn't word it that way.

We all know we are 'to' love and that it is the 1st Commandment, but this man taught of an experience that is much like a Dying type experience, that happens quicker than most other "dying" type experiences, when 'His Love' is seen almost in it's fullest.

Talk about being "blown away in the Light".
Well, that's what he meant.

Right now, I'm sort of exhausted from a secular forum, but if I can do this teaching any justice at all, I should wait till I'm more awake or feeling better.

Nee talks much of "death to self" and that's great ... and yes, he talks about love ... but this other guy has Agape as his only talk and it's more intense than anything I've read in 30 years of searching.

I didn't want to try to "explain" it, as he does, because I don't want anyone here to think that I think I've "made it".

I've experienced the POW explosion of what he is talking about, but found, since now dealing with physical infirmities, that it puts things on a different testing field, that I didn't have to deal with 3 years ago.

Aw, I don't feel I'm doing this any justice, so maybe I'll try another day or let Dorcas or Diane take it from here. They have a brain left. :-D

Love.
Annie

 2006/2/4 17:42









 Re:


Hi Annie,
I just got back from work so I didn't get to reply.I just really enjoy reading Watchman Nee and I've learned more from him than anyone else but it may not be for everyone.I don't think humanly speaking we could experience all of the love God has for us because it would probably kill us.I am one who believes that our lives have already been written.If God can prophecy 2,000 years ahead of time than you can bet He knows our end and our beginning so their is no need to try to work anything out.God knows how to get you from point "A" to point "B".We are written in the palm of His hand and even the hairs of our head are numbered.He knows when we sit down and when we rise up.Even if we made our bed in hell He is there too.Jesus said my sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow.I don't intend on following any strangers and know you don't either.So if we follow our shepherd's voice than we can't loose right?

And I don't have a brain left either right now Ive been doing house work and taking care of my five kids all day and I just got home from work and it's midnight.So if Im not making any sense right now than you'll have to forgive me.







 2006/2/5 0:05
Quickend
Member



Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42


 Re:

MUST WE SIN! Perhaps I should rephrase this question. WHY DO SO MANY CHRISTIANS BELIVE THAT WE HAVE TO SIN?

Since I first posted this thread some time ago, I have read (I think) every response. The sad thing is that I Have come across many who assert that it is impossible to live sinless, But few if any who have qualified the assertions with scripture.

We have become so satisfied with our take on sin, that many of us have moved on to whatever is perhaps more interesting or popular at the moment. WELL WE BETTER HAVE IT RIGHT! because there is no room for error. Some of us have catagorized somany things as sin that we have convinced ourselves that we can't help but sin, to this I say "IS THERE ANYTHING TO HARD FOR GOD"

Finaly, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" But qualify it with the word.


_________________
Robert.High

 2006/2/5 4:02Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, must we sin is a question from mount sinai, but can we be holy as He is holy is a question from mt. Zion jimp

 2006/2/5 5:56Profile
seekup
Member



Joined: 2006/1/18
Posts: 14


 Re:

Quickend, Thank you for the challenge to qualify my statements in my last post. I still offer those verses to support my conclusion.(matt 15:16-20, matt 5:27-28, Romans 7:18) However, I am forced to reflect further on that conclusion. I realized that the bulk of my reason is based on how I view the function of the mind and not how I view the meaning of scripture. I will continue to reflect on the verses in regards to sin. I guess that I was missing the part about growing in the spirit. Just because I have not learned to live a life without sin does not mean it is not possible. I only know one thing for sure. I make it through my day to day life by His grace only. I am not fully convinced that I was wrong with my conclusion but I will enjoy diving into scripture to find the truth of of His word. Please, keep asking the hard questions. Thanks Chris

 2006/2/5 7:01Profile









 Re:


I need to rephrase what I meant when I wrote "that we don't need to work anything out." What I meant was that it's no longer I that live but Christ that liveth in me.We do need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as the scripture says.
I will have to probably explain myself more later but I have to leave to work again. :-(


 2006/2/5 11:20









 Re:


Hi Rebecca,

I'm sorry to hear you have to work sooo hard! I hope you enjoy it. Anyway, it's good for us to understand what each other are up against in 3D.

I just want to say thanks for the reply you made to me. My post wasn't particularly simple, as I deliberately covered a lot of ground which I believe the church is confused about. The church doesn't think it's confused, so, it's not seeing the inconsistencies in the forms of words it uses. You did say you were not sure you understood me.... sometimes, the answers to questions come through other people's posts, so, I don't mind leaving things as they are. But, do ask if you want.

The main point I wish to convey, is that we do not put ourselves to death or lay down our soul life, to become like Jesus. We have soul, of which David said 'He restores my soul' (Ps 23) and the only putting to death we need do, is of the 'sins of the flesh'. There are many other activities of the flesh which are not sinful of themselves.

By living in the Spirit and walking in the newness of life which the Spirit makes possible, our lives are pleasing to God.

With regard to the restoration of the soul, this work is partly seen in Jesus's ministry to sick people, long before He started talking about how a disciple would need to deny (disown) himself and take up his cross to follow Him. I desire for my soul to be as reflective of the life of Christ - His physical and mental Health - as possible, [u]so that[/u] I may endure to the end and see the salvation of my soul completed by being received in heaven.

 2006/2/5 11:35
Quickend
Member



Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42


 Re:


MUST WE SIN! Perhaps I should rephrase this question. WHY DO SO MANY CHRISTIANS BELIVE THAT WE HAVE TO SIN?

Since I first posted this thread some time ago, I have read (I think) every response. The sad thing is that I Have come across many who assert that it is impossible to live sinless, But few if any who have qualified the assertions with scripture.

We have become so satisfied with our take on sin, that many of us have moved on to whatever is perhaps more interesting or popular at the moment. WELL WE BETTER HAVE IT RIGHT! because there is no room for error. Some of us have catagorized somany things as sin that we have convinced ourselves that we can't help but sin, to this I say "IS THERE ANYTHING TO HARD FOR GOD"

Finaly, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" But qualify it with the word.


_________________
And he said unto me my grace is sufficient for thee


_________________
Robert.High

 2006/2/5 12:37Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
The main point I wish to convey, is that we do not put ourselves to death or lay down our soul life, to become like Jesus. We have soul, of which David said 'He restores my soul' (Ps 23) and the only putting to death we need do, is of the 'sins of the flesh'. There are many other activities of the flesh which are not sinful of themselves.



Not so. This sounds like compartmentalizing. To 'become' like Jesus? That is an impossibility. Emulation or transformation?

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[b]Col 3:5 - Mortify therefore your members,....[/b] Not your bodies, as the Ethiopic version reads, nor the members of the natural body, but of the body of sin, indwelling sin; which as a body consists of various members, which are parts of it, rise out of it, and are used by it, as the members are by the body; and intend the sins of the flesh, or sinful actions, which are generally performed by the members of the natural body, in which the law of sin is, and by which it operates; so that the mortification the saints are here exhorted to, in consideration of having a spiritual life in them, and a hope of eternal life in Christ, from whence the apostle argues, is not a mortification or destruction of the body of sin itself, or of the being and principle of it in the soul, where it is, and lives, and dwells, and will as long as the saints are in this tabernacle, but of the deeds of the body, or of sinful actions, as to the life and conversation; and signifies a denial of them, an abstinence from them, and a non-performance of them; See Gill on Rom_8:13. These members, or deeds of the body, or acts of sin, are called "your": for as the old man is ours, the vitiosity of nature is what we bring into the world with us, and is rooted and incorporated into us; so the actions that flow from it, and are done by it, are not to be ascribed to God, nor even to Satan, but they are our own actions, and which are performed by the members of our mortal body, or by the faculties of our souls: and are,

[b]which are on earth[/b]: or earthly; are concerned about earthly things, the things of the world, worldly lusts and pleasures, which rise out of earthly mindedness, and incline unto it, and are only what are done here on earth, and will have no place in heaven. The particulars of which follow:

[b]fornication[/b]; the sin of uncleanness committed by single persons, or out of the state of marriage, and which the Gentiles did not account sinful: hence so much notice is taken of it, with a censure, and so often, by the apostle, in almost all his epistles, and dehorted from, as a sin against the body, as what disqualified for church communion, and was not to be named among the saints, who should be dead to that, and that to them, as to the commission of it.

[b]Uncleanness[/b]; of every sort, all other impure actions, as adultery, incest, sodomy, and every other unnatural lust; all which should be abstained from, and never committed by those who profess to be alive unto God.

[b]Inordinate affection[/b]; which may intend the passions, or first motions of sin, stirred up by the law, and which work in, and operate by the members of the body, and bring forth fruit unto death, and therefore to be opposed by such as have a life in Christ; and also those vile affections, which some in a judicial way are given up unto, and prevail with those who are effeminate, and abusers of themselves with mankind, and which are to be abhorred and denied by all who are heirs of the grace of life, and expectants of an heavenly one.

[b]Evil concupiscence[/b]; so called to distinguish it from that natural concupiscence, or desire after things lawful and necessary, and which is implanted in nature by God himself; and from that spiritual concupiscence or desire after spiritual things, and that lusting against the flesh and carnal things, which is formed in the heart of a regenerate man by the Spirit of God. It is the same with יצר הרע, "the evil imagination", or corruption of nature so much spoken of by the Jews. This here is what is forbidden by that law, "thou shalt not covet", Exo_20:17; and includes every fleshly lust and inordinate desire, or every desire after that which is not lawful, or does not belong to a man; as what is another's property, his wife, or goods, or anything that is his; and so very naturally follows,

[b]covetousness[/b]; an immoderate love of money, the root of all evil, an insatiable desire of having more, and of having more than a man's own; and is enlarged as hell, and as death is not satisfied, but still craves more, without making any good use of what is possessed:

[b]which is idolatry[/b]. The covetous man, and the idolater, worship the same for matter and substance, even gold and silver; the covetous man lays up his money, makes no use of it, as if it was something sacred; he looks at it, and adores it, and puts his trust and confidence in it, and his heart is so much set upon it, that he neglects the worship of the true God; and indeed no man can serve God and mammon. Some think, that by this πλεονεξια rendered "covetousness", is meant, that greedy desire after the commission of all uncleanness, and impure actions, which were perpetrated by the followers of Simon Magus in their religious assemblies, and under the notion of worship, and as acceptable to God, and therefore called idolatry; and which ought not to be once named, much less practised, among the living members of Christ. Moreover, such filthy actions were performed by the Gentiles in the worship of their deities.

John Gill

1Co 9:22 To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 Now I do this for the gospel's sake, that I may be a joint partaker of it.
1Co 9:24 Don't you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win.
1Co 9:25 Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,
1Co 9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/2/5 12:56Profile









 Re: Must we sin?

dorcas (myself)

Quote:
the only putting to death we need do, is of the 'sins of the flesh'.

Hi Mike,

You've quoted one of the verses I had in mind when I wrote that. I agree completely that the sins of the flesh should be mortified. That's what I believe. That's what I said.

I assume you've read the preceding post (the last one before MeAgain, p10) of which my latest before this one, was a clarification. In that context, I should have emboldened 'selves' - see below - and 'soul life', for even greater clarity.

Quote:
The main point I wish to convey, is that we do not put our[b]selves[/b] to death or lay down our [b]soul life[/b],

There are a number of verses in scripture which agree with Col 3:5. I'm not in dispute with any of them.

 2006/2/5 13:28





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