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| Re: | | hi all,quick i wish i could just be like that! most christian can and they just know and i dont and it drives me nut..i just cant help my questions there just there..meagain thks for ur replies and i take it all on board |
| 2006/1/30 21:51 | | jimbob Member
Joined: 2005/9/25 Posts: 131
| Re: | | God gave Adam the choice, the choice was "fair". Adam chose death, God did not force him.The choice was neither cruel nor unfair. The outcome of that choice also was neither cruel or unfair, it was JUST.
Personally, I'm glad that God is not "fair"! If God were "fair" He would not have intervened with our chosen destinies and we would all be toast.
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| 2006/1/31 5:55 | Profile |
| Re: | | hi,Jim but if i stole a apple from you,would you blame my greatgreatgreat....Grandson?andy |
| 2006/1/31 14:09 | | PreachParsly Member
Joined: 2005/1/14 Posts: 2164 Arkansas
| Re: | | You may find this thread interesting:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9297&forum=36&35]Oringinal Sin? Adam or Me?[/url] _________________ Josh Parsley
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| 2006/1/31 14:50 | Profile | JaySaved Member
Joined: 2005/7/11 Posts: 1132 Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
hi,Jim but if i stole a apple from you,would you blame my greatgreatgreat....Grandson?andy
Here is my understanding of "Original Sin":
In Genesis 2:15-17: The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, [i]for when you eat of it you will surely die."[/i]
Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God cast them out of the garden of Eden. They brought sin into the world. Notice God told Adam Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
God told Adam not to do something or he would die. Adam disobeyed God and as we well know by Adam not walking around anymore...he died.
So therefore as decendants of Adam, we also die. Today people all over the world are dying...good people, bad people...Christians, non-Christians.
The sin of Adam is passed down to each of us in our "sinful nature" (or KJV "flesh").
An example of this would be a child. Does anyone have to teach a child to be selfish? Do children have to be taught to lie? No. They do this naturally...it is their nature to be selfish and think of themselves.
This is my take on "Original Sin"
So, to answer to question: My great, great...great, great grandfather did disobey a command of God. Because this sinful nature has been passed down through each generation I must be reconciled with God through Christ.
Seeing that I am sinful by nature and that I cannot obtain righteousness with God through anything on my own...the "Good News" about a Saviour who will reconcile me to God is really GOOD NEWS!!!
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| 2006/1/31 16:18 | Profile |
| Re: | | jimbob said;
Quote:
God gave Adam the choice, the choice was "fair"
I don't think it was "fair". After all there was no such a thing as death in the garden and of Eden and God tells them the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.
If I were Adam my question would be, "God what is death".
Nothing died in this paradise, there was no reference, nothing to give a parable about. They were like two kids in a candy store.
If they had knowledge, then God's plan would not have gone thru. It was necessary that they had no knowledge of anything that had to do with laws.
Though God threw one law into the arena, and he knew that this flesh that he housed Adam and Eve in would want to touch this thing that God forbade. All that was needed to stir this fleshly desire up is temptation. Some may look at this as a lab experiment gone wrong, in the eyes of God it worked perfectly. He reacted in anger, a characteristic of God, and then He reacted in mercy another characteristic of God.
Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, a race had to fall in order for Christ to come and redeem it. And the rest is history. |
| 2006/1/31 21:00 | |
| Re: | | 1Ti 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived", but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Adam was not like us. He had all the brain power and knowledge that God had intended for His Creation. Adam was able to name all the animals, etc. etc. and care for and tend a Garden that size ... before the Fall, the body and mind that Adam had, was not what came after the Fall and he did have "knowledge" or Paul couldn't say, "Adam was not deceived".
Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life instead, but chose through weakeness to follow the woman. Dumb idea.
God is not the Author of sin and to say, this was God's plan all along would make Him so.
The Lord just knew through His foreknowledge what man's freewill would do.
Otherwise, it was just a bad lab experiment and would NOT be "fair".
God created us to love us, but knew what we would do, so He had to have the plan, of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world ... or else, if it were not for giving us freewill to love and obey Him ... it wouldn't be True Real Love ... but a bunch of robots.
The Great Contest; at the end; is God winning over Satan ... and freewilled Love wins out over Satan's Hatred and 'control' didn't.
If we could just see His 'Love' as the whole cause & reason for Creation to begin with and that sin is Satan's 'hatred' ... it may help us to see the importance and the why's of what we do and preach.
Satan's into control ... God is Choice & Love. And we all know Who wins at the end. 8-) |
| 2006/1/31 21:53 | | jimbob Member
Joined: 2005/9/25 Posts: 131
| Re: | | Loveslave,
Your theology mirrors that of mormonism, not Christianity. God did not desire us to fall. |
| 2006/2/1 4:41 | Profile |
| Re: | | hi guys thks for the thread on sin Parsly...jimbob why do u say that about loveslaves post? andy |
| 2006/2/1 5:01 | | CJaKfOrEsT Member
Joined: 2004/3/31 Posts: 901 Melbourne, Australia
| Re: Grace, Mercy and Holiness. | | Quote:
MeAgain wrote: The Lord just knew through His foreknowledge what man's freewill would do.
Otherwise, it was just a bad lab experiment and would NOT be "fair".
God created us to love us, but knew what we would do, so He had to have the plan, of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world ... or else, if it were not for giving us freewill to love and obey Him ... it wouldn't be True Real Love ... but a bunch of robots.
This is the problem I have with many "holiness" proponents. They are too afraid to make God seem "unfair" and as a result they put the "cart before the horse" or worse yet, "kill the horse and strap on the cart to themselves". Having said that, I'm also greatful, because it forces someone like me to be more diligent in describing things accurately, out of a perpetual fear of misunderstanding.
Many "holiness" preachers quote Ravenhill and Wesley until the cows come home, but neglect tha Wesley required all of his preachers to be versed in the teachings of William Law and Jacob Boehme, and when you consider that a mystic like Boehme is on the reading list of occult groups, you begin to realise the volitility of truth, and how easy it is to twist truth a tiny degree and out comes deception. However, true apostolic christians are contantly at risk of being misquoted and misdefined, as I believe the bro Loveslave has been.
I'm reminded of Kieth Daniels testimony, where he tells of his mother's conversion. The was the last in the family of four to become a christian. Her protest was, "Keith I know that you're all trying to tell me I'm a sinner, but I'm not Keith." She then went on to challenge him to come up with one fault in her life of upstanding morality, integrity and mercy, saying "You tell me one thing that I've need forgiveness of, and I'll repent." Keith could not think of one thing, nor his father and brother. Then a woman of God came around and told her that her sin was to think that Christ died for everyone on the earth but her. That broke her.
This is one reason why it is extremely wise to replace the word "sin" with "selfishness", in our mentality. In our western society, the "sin" seems to mean doing something wrong, but that falls far short of the biblical definition. Paul put like this, "That which is not of faith is sin." In other words, unless our actions proceed out of a trust in God, they are sinful. If our actions proceed out of self exertion, they fall short of giving God glory, which is the chief end of all being. That is true "selfishness".
People think that the end of our being is obedience to God. The end isn't obedience. Obedience is simply the means to the ends, which is surrender. To quote Norman Grubb, "God doesn't help you, He takes over and does it for you. There's a difference." There is no room for boasting in that. The mercy shame of it all is the you need Him to do it.
The issue of the tree of knowledge is that of a separate source of inspiration, which although was placed there by God, and is divine in the sence of containing all that God knows, it was prohibited from man, because His intention was never obedience in action, but relationship to His person. Good action is the logical outcome and only proof of right relationship. If the relationship is right, the action will never need to be forced, but comes natural. This is taking up the Lord's yoke.
In a sence, man had to eat of the fruit, for without a preceeding death, there could not be life. This is not in the sence that some Jewish theologians believe that God wanted man to grow out of a need for him, by aquiring His knowledge, but that a redemption needed to occur in order for man not to be [b]self[/b]righteous. Otherwise there would always be the thought that he were doing this for God, rather than understanding the "every good gift comes down".
Wisdom (which is simply applied knowledge) isn't meant to be acquired through studious exertion, but through asking the Father, who gives liberaly to all that ask (James 1). There is also an element of learning through mistakes. An electrician is only as safe as his knowledge of what [b]not[/b] to do.
The reason why anyone goes to hell has nothing to do with action, apart from the fact that action proves the lack of relationship. This is why the books that are openned at the end are "works" and "life". If we are rating our life by our works, then we are displaying an attitude that seeks to replace God. However, to quote Paris Reidhead, "Listen dear heart; if youve ever seen yourself youll know youre never going to be anything else than you were. For in me and my flesh theres no good thing."
There is no such thing as "me before". We don't "change" in as much as we lose our impulse to sin, but we enter into a life that is marked by an eternal dependance on Him to obey. We cling for eternity, for that is the point to it all, the "clinging".
In essence, when the books are openned, our response shall be, "Don't even go there, for my best deeds fall short. I'll save you the trouble, I am guilty, nothing but guilty. Plaese by your mercy, am I recorded in your 'Life' book?" Only those that are "hid in Him" are there. _________________ Aaron Ireland
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| 2006/2/2 17:34 | Profile |
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