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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That is to say "to be in the flesh' in this context is not just a matter of our position but of our experience. To be in Adam or in Christ as in Romans 5 and 6 is positional. But to be "in the flesh or in the spirit is a matter of our condition and experience.

Witness Lee's Recovery Version is taking the Watchman Nee line here of a separation between 'standing and state'. This notion of standing versus state, as you rightly recognize, was quite unknown to Wesley. It is a 'Brethren' tweak which is highly speculative. Penn Lewis' writings of course are almost entirely speculative.

I have a copy of the Recovery Version but I have not been particularly impressed with it. It shows the signs of a single translator in its narrowness and interdependence of concept. The footnotes seem to be largely Witness Lee's explanation and justification of his own line of teaching.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 4:32Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Ron's passages:

“For when we [u]were[/u] in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5, KJVS)

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye [u]are not[/u] in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:8-9, KJVS)

It seems to me that one is either 'in the flesh' or are 'in' the Holy Spirit, but not both at the same time. Perhaps my best definition of 'the Flesh' is an equation:

'Man' [b]-[/b] the Holy Spirit [b]=[/b] 'in the Flesh'.

'Man' [b]+[/b] the Holy Spirit [b]=[/b] 'in the Spirit'

In this model the flesh is the man under the influence of the spirit of disobedience. A person who is 'in the Spirit' is FULL of the Holy Ghost- which expells the influence of [u]S[/u]in. This is why more and more I am coming to the conclusion that we may not fully appreciate the command 'but be ye filled with the Spirit.' When a person is not FULL then (however it happens) they become vulnerable to temptation.

I believe in part it is because when a person is 'in the Spirit', FULL of the Holy Ghost they have different appetites and 'feed' in a different pasture (if you will). They have no appetite for things that are going to feed their NATURAL (non-sinful and good) desires until they become [i]unnatural lusts[/i]. On the contrary when one does not seek the Lord in prayer and to be continually filled, they begin to set their [i]mind[/i] on the things of this earth. This is progressive. The influences of the world are too powerful to ignore the mandate to be filled with the Spirit and stay filled. Is it not through the fullness of the Spirit that we have the mind of Christ?

So often Ron points out that we need to know [u]who[/u] a letter (epistle) is addressed to. I have to believe that the letters are written (especially Romans and Galatians) to those who had received the Holy Spirit (by the hearing of faith) or also as Paul says, "having begun in the Spirit..." and were [i]expected[/i] to be being filled with the Spirit. If you were NOT being filled with the Spirit- the letter would not make sense to you. You had not gone through the experience he was referring to and so it could never make any sense.

More evidence of the true nature of Sin and the flesh is found when the Lord rebuked Peter (Satan through Peter):

and he having turned, said to Peter, 'Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, [u]for thou dost not mind the things of God[/u], but the things of men.(Matthew 16:23

This is a tremendous revelation as to the 'mindset' of Satan and hence his children; [u]for thou dost not mind the things of God[/u]. Is their minds void of thought? Is their minds empty now that God is not on their mind? Romans 1 and 2 comes to mind, where folk did not like to [u]retain[/u] God in their minds. So when God is not on the mind, what is? Answer: [u]but the things of men[/u].

The Born Again person starts [u]resisting[/u] the Holy Ghost and minding the things of men; feeding their lusts, until they believe they are captive to 'the flesh' and wonder what is wrong with them. The [i]problem[/i] is that they are not staying FULL of the Holy Ghost. This is where I think the struggle for 'control' really is. If a person is serious about yielding up their will they will seek God to be continually 'filled' with the Spirit. If they want to run their own life- they will ignore this precept and haphazardly seek the Lord for fulness. The enemy comes along and then points the finger- "its the flesh!"... "its the flesh!" and the lie is believed. The truth is, they are [u]resisting[/u] and quenching the Holy Spirit as He prompts them to pray and seek the Lord for fullness. Its all about fullness. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/3 8:56Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re:

Quote:
This notion of standing versus state, as you rightly recognize, was quite unknown to Wesley. It is a 'Brethren' tweak which is highly speculative. Penn Lewis' writings of course are almost entirely speculative.



To refer to this distinction as a "tweak" is quite an understatement. One might as well say, 'Justification by faith was Luther's "tweak" to the Roman Catholic system of sacramental salvation.

As to speculative, a better word is "exposition of the text".

To recognize the difference between standing and state is no small matter. And to see judicial justification as the basis for dispositional sanctification is simply to follow the lines of revelation in the Word.

And one may say many things, but spceculative cannot be a word used to describe any matter of the teaching of either Watchman Nee or Jessie Penn Lewis. In principle both refused to teach anything that they had not proven in experience. And this is what makes their ministries rich in Life and not merely speculative.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/3 23:58Profile
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 Re: Original Sin? Adam or Me?

Quote:Winkie Pratney
(by way ofLazarus1719)

Sin is never natural. It is horribly unnatural. Sin is NEVER "human".

would anyone like the opportunity to show mercy on a lazy reader and condense this orignal thead into a digestable summary?

I thought it was commonly excepted among belivers that men were born with a sinful nature.


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Robert.High

 2006/2/4 5:57Profile









 Re: sinful nature

This article may help you

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=10416

 2006/2/4 6:04
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I thought it was commonly excepted among belivers that men were born with a sinful nature.


It has been, generally speaking, but there have been notable exceptions; Robert Barclay (speaking for George Fox), Charles Finney, (speaking for himself!) and those who align themselves with his teaching. Winkie Pratney, Paris Reidhead, and freecd.

'commonly accepted' of course, doesn't mean the majority is right that's why we are having this 'discussion' rather than having a 'vote'. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/4 12:46Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Graftedbranch's

Quote:
To recognize the difference between standing and state is no small matter. And to see judicial justification as the basis for dispositional sanctification is simply to follow the lines of revelation in the Word.

Justification by faith having been rediscovered by Luther became the common treasure of the whole church. State and standing have remained the speciality of the Brethren and those associated with them in various ways.

Quote:
And one may say many things, but spceculative cannot be a word used to describe any matter of the teaching of either Watchman Nee or Jessie Penn Lewis.

I am not questioning the spiriuality of these two but the teaching of Mrs Penn Lewis, embraced as it was by T Austin Sparks consequently Watchman Nee of the inter-operation of soul and spirit is not derived from scripture but from their observation of 'cases'. This is a dangerous foundation for doctrine.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/4 12:52Profile
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 Re:

"I am not questioning the spiriuality of these two but the teaching of Mrs Penn Lewis, embraced as it was by T Austin Sparks consequently Watchman Nee of the inter-operation of soul and spirit is not derived from scripture but from their observation of 'cases'. This is a dangerous foundation for doctrine."

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of Christ is in those that are born again, they are born of Spirit.

Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

When the spirit came out of her spirit, the soul remained or she would be deaf mute with no mind, will or intellect. We must separate the Soul From the Spirit or The Spirit of Christ that is birthed in every believer would make each one of us exact copies of Jesus Christ, with His Mind Will and Intellect. We are told to renew our mind, which is the soul, mind, will and intellect. This is conformation that the soul and spirit are separate but operate as one. Do we separate the Body from the Spirit at death? Yes or the glorified body that God gives us would be no different. Paul separates the body, soul and spirit and deals with them as separate parts but making up the whole or the Spirit of Christ could not dwell in us with a corruptible soul and body. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Dividing asunder the soul mind from the spirit, which is Christ and the body. In dividing the Word is the discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart. The Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, The Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher of the soul mind, the didaskw paraklhtoV, the Teacher Comforter. The glorious body like His.

Who is the Discerner? Jesus Christ Himself, "The Word" John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Even Mary separated the two in their capacity to magnify and rejoice. Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul (psuche) magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Intellect praising God.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit (pneuma) hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Spirit of Christ in us is our rejoicing that Satan is out and Christ is in.

Even to quickening of The Body of Mary to contain the Spirit, Soul and Body of Christ. This is what happens when we are born again, The Body is quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ the Seed of the Father that the soul might learn and renew the mind and the Spirit is now contained in Flesh. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He (Holy Spirit) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit (Christ) that dwelleth in you. This is a separate work by the Holy Spirit of quickening these mortal bodies to be able to contain the Spirit of Christ in Flesh. Then the Holy Spirit can complete the work He was sent to do. Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him (Holy Spirit) abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him. (Christ)

We are saved in Spirit, we are being saved in soul, and we will be saved in body. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; "delivered", saved, (in spirit) "doth deliver", is delivering (soul mind). "will yet deliver", will deliver us in body, which will be like His. The Spirit of Christ has saved us, New Birth in Spirit. The Holy Spirit is saving us in our Soul Mind. The Body will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to His Glorious Body and we will ever be with the Lord.

Derived from Scripture.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/5 0:12Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Justification by faith having been rediscovered by Luther became the common treasure of the whole church. State and standing have remained the speciality of the Brethren and those associated with them in various ways.



While the brethren saw this distinction clearly, It has become quite a common way to understand the process of sanctification.

But more than this, It is scriptural. For instance, in 1 Corinthians Paul addresses them as "the Church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been 'sanctified" in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with those who call upon the name of the Lord in every place, who is thiers and ours..."

Paul regarded them as the church, they were in Christ Jesus and had been (past tense) sanctified (set apart) in Christ Jesus.

This was their standing. They are the chuch, They are in Christ Jesus, they are called saints, and they have been sanctified in Christ Jesus.

Yet, as we read on they were anything but saintly. They were living and acting "as mere men". They were babes in Christ, they were carnal and even "fleshy". A very strong word. There was even fornication among them.

Yet, despite all this, they were the "called saints.

In position, they were in Christ, they were a genuine church, were regenerated with the Divine Life, and they had all the gifts of the Spirit, etc. But their condition was anything but reflective of this.

Judicial redemption is the base upon which God regenerates us. It is the base upon which God can regenarate fallen sinners and make them children of God. And it is also the base upon which God does all His work in us. We are regenerated on this basis, and we grow in LIfe on this same basis. God accounts us rightouse, He has given us Christ to be our rightousness. He has put the Father's robe on us.

And based on Christ's redemption, the Spirit sanctifies us imparting Christ into us and God deals with us on this basis to conform us to the image of Christ.

Redemption is dispensational, regenration is dispositional, Our standing is in Christ, our experience fluctuates. Our experience has to be brought up to the standard of our standing. This is a day by day process. And eventually all God's redeemed will be fully conformed to the image of the First Born Son of God. (Romans 8:29)

When the Children of Isreal applied the Blood to their doorposts, they were intrinsically no more holy than those who didn't, But God passed over them. THe Blood was for God to see.

But they also ate the Lamb. This brought the Lamb inside of them. And this was their strength to leave Egypt. The Blood is the basis for their redemption, but the eating of the lamb was their strength to leave. Both aspects are seen here, both standing and condition. But eating the lamb was only the begining, AFter leaving egypt, they had to eat Christ as the Manna every day to become reconstituted with the "heavenly food" And we also must eat Christ every day to become reconstituted with Him.

Our standing as believers is in Christ. We are redeemed judicially and regenerated dispositionally. And we are sanctified dispositionally in Christ and by the Spirit's daily work within us we are being conformed to His Image. Our state is being brought up to match or standing. This is the Christian Life.



Graftedbranch



 2006/2/6 6:27Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Justification by faith having been rediscovered by Luther became the common treasure of the whole church. State and standing have remained the speciality of the Brethren and those associated with them in various ways.



Justification by faith became the common treasure of the whole church because justification by faith is the base of the Church. Apart from justification by faith there is no church at all. And whatever orginization of men which calls itself the church but denies justification by faith is not the church because there is only one foundation laid.

But the understanding of sanctification is built upon this one foundation. You may have the foundation but not have the understanding of state vs. standing.

If the whole church does not embrace a certian teaching or understanding, it is not because it is false, but because it just has not seen it.

But the scriptures are clear regarding the distinction between our standing in Christ as believers and our experience of Christ which is based on our standing. It is not obscure. It is clearly laid out in scritpure not here or there in obscure passages, but it is the common thread and base of all the epistles.

John Wesley's view of a "second blessing" which eradicates sin from us and make us perfect and sinless has no basis in scripture. And in reading his defense of it he must resort to redefining sin to accomodate the obviose failures of those who perport to be such "sinless saints".

There is indeed a genuine experience of Christ as our indwelling overcomming life and as we mature in Him this becomes the daily reality of our experience, but this must be maintained by constant fellowship with Christ in His Word and copnstant abiding in Him. Otherwise our sinfull fallen flesh will reassert itself as all saints can testify to in experience.

Those who are most filled with Christ and are most spiritual are the ones who live close to the Lord and are constantly saying, "Lord forgive me, Lord clense me, Lord revive me, Lord gain me."

And one who believes he has become sinless is blind and has no conciousness of what sin genuinly is. He must excuse his self assertion, his self seeking, his self exalting, and all such "little sins". He may cease to drink, smoke and chew and run around with girls who do, but does he love the brethren with a selfless love. Does he never lose his temper? Does he always treat his wife with the Love of Christ? Does he recieve correction from others? And if he does, what is he correctted from if he is sinnless?

Is he always faithful in prayer? Does he never give in to lazyness and fail to have his time with the Lord? Does he never fail to call on the Lord and pray about every matter? Does he always obey the leading and prompting of the Spirit within him ?

Sinless perfection is the possession of only one Person and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. And only to the degree we are constituted with Him do we enjoy His sinless life.

A person who believes he has had some experience which eradicated sin from his flesh is decieved. As John says, "if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, but if we confess our sins, God is just and faithful to forgive us our sins and to clense us from all unrightousness.

Was Peter not prevy to this experience when he withdrew from eating with the gentiles in hypocracy and Paul had to rebuke him to his face?

Was Paul not prevy to this experience when he said harsh words to the High priest saying, "God shall smite thee thou white washed sepulcur", and had to repent?

A reading of both Wesley's and George Whitefild's journals reveals a John Wesley which was anything from sinlessly perfect. He was strongly opinionated. He ignored and set aside clear revelation in scripture. He broke promises. He was often contradictory. He even made many critical decisions such as his theological view by casting lots. He had many faults and did many things which he ignored and refused to acknolwege. Why? Most likely to admit fault is to deny his sinless state which he imagined.

Until our bodies are redeemed at our Lord's comming, it will remain true that "he who sows to his flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the spirit shall from the Spirit reap life which is eternal."


Graftedbranch



 2006/2/7 12:25Profile





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