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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves;"

I like this footnote in the RcV:

Old man - "Referring to the natural life in our soul. The old man is our very being, which was created by God but became fallen through sin, and it is the same as the "I" in Gal. 2:20. It is not the soul itself but the life of the soul, which has been counted by God as hopeless and has been put on the cross and crucified with Christ. Formerly, our soul acted as an independent person, with the old man as its life and personality; now, since the old man has been crucified, our soul should act only as an organ of Christ and should be under the control of our spirit, having Christ as its life."

Body of sin - "The body indwelt, occupied, corrupted, possessed, utilized, and enslaved by sin, so that it does sinful things. This body of sin is very active and full of strength to commit sins; it differs from "the body of this death" mentioned in 7:24, which is weak and powerless in the things of God. The body of sin is not the sinning person but the sinning instrument utilized by the old man to express himself by committing sins, thereby causing the body of sin to become the flesh. Hence, the body of sin in this verse and the flesh of sin in 8:3 refer to the same thing."

Annulled - "Or, unemployed, jobless, inactive. Because the old man has been crucified with Christ, the body that had been utilized by him as the instrument for sinning now has nothing to do; it is unemployed, jobless. Thus, we have been freed from sin and no longer need to be under the bodnage of sin to serve sin as slaves."

My summation - Sin still dwells in our flesh. It has not changed. But we have changed. We have been crucified with Christ and we are no longer slaves to sin in our flesh. We are not under obligation to it. We have been freed from it in Christ. The nature of the flesh has not changed but our relationship to it has changed. The Old man was a slave to sin in the flesh but having been baptised into His death, we are freed from the slavery to sin in our flesh. We are free to live by Christ in our spirit.

The Old man is the "man of old" The man who was a slave to sin. He has been crucified with Christ. We are no longer slaves of sin but we can now by the mercies of God present our members to God as slaves of rightousness.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/2 13:19Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Graftedbranch,

Quote:
Old man - "Referring to the natural life in our soul. The old man is our very being, which was created by God but became fallen through sin, and it is the same as the "I" in Gal. 2:20. It is not the soul itself but the life of the soul, which has been counted by God as hopeless and has been put on the cross and crucified with Christ. Formerly, our soul acted as an independent person, with the old man as its life and personality; now, since the old man has been crucified, our soul should act only as an organ of Christ and should be under the control of our spirit, having Christ as its life."



I believe this is the common understanding of the term 'Old man', but passages such as in Ephesians 2 and 4 as well as Romans 6 seem to indicate that our Old Man is that which rules those who are in Adam (corporately). If you are in Adam, you are under the old man, etc.

This becomes more difficult though when it comes to understanding the "Body of Sin." I have to believe that is individual, but am unsure.

Quote:
The body of sin is not the sinning person but the sinning instrument utilized by the old man to express himself by committing sins, thereby causing the body of sin to become the flesh. Hence, the body of sin in this verse and the flesh of sin in 8:3 refer to the same thing."



So is it the material body that is somehow sinful and if so, how can that be and how does that differ from dualism? If the body is sinful simply as a human 'body' then Christ's body would have been shot through also with Sin. This opens the door to a discussion of the transmission of Sin- is it physical, metaphysical, or something else?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/2 13:59Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Graftedbranch's

Quote:
Old man - "Referring to the natural life in our soul. The old man is our very being, which was created by God but became fallen through sin, and it is the same as the "I" in Gal. 2:20. It is not the soul itself but the life of the soul, which has been counted by God as hopeless and has been put on the cross and crucified with Christ. Formerly, our soul acted as an independent person, with the old man as its life and personality; now, since the old man has been crucified, our soul should act only as an organ of Christ and should be under the control of our spirit, having Christ as its life."

I think this is very complicated and as far as I can understand it I disagree with it. I don't think the 'Old Man' is at all the same thing as Paul's 'I'. I have often pointed out in these threads on similar subjects that in... “knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin.”
(Rom. 6:6, DRBY)... we have the phenomena of a plural possessive pronoun (our) and a singular noun 'man'. We do not have a personal, separate 'old man'; that is to say they are not lots of 'old men' but just ONE old man.

This is a direct reference back to Rom 5:12ff where Paul refers constantly to 'one man' “Wherefore, as by [u]one[/u] man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of [u]one[/u] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by [u][b]one[/b][/u] man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by [u]one[/u] that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by [u]one[/u] to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by [u]one[/u] man’s offence death reigned by [u]one[/u]; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by [u][b]one[/b][/u], Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of [u]one[/u] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of [u][b]one[/b][/u] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by [u]one[/u] man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of [u][b]one[/b][/u] shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(Rom. 5:12-21, KJVS)I have put the 'one man' into bold font where it refers to Christ. In this passage the are just TWO men in view. One 'old man'; the Greek is the Ancient Man (ie Adam), and one 'new man' Christ. All men are in either of these two 'one man'. In the passage God's remedy for our condition is the crucifixion of the 'old man' at the point of Christ's death and the beginning of a 'new creation' in the 'new man'. The 'old man' is a Satanic counterfeit of the 'indwelling Christ'. But just as there are not many 'Christ's' but just one Christ in many saints, so there was only ever one 'old man' in all of us.

Quote:
Body of sin - "The body indwelt, occupied, corrupted, possessed, utilized, and enslaved by sin, so that it does sinful things. This body of sin is very active and full of strength to commit sins; it differs from "the body of this death" mentioned in 7:24, which is weak and powerless in the things of God. The body of sin is not the sinning person but the sinning instrument utilized by the old man to express himself by committing sins, thereby causing the body of sin to become the flesh. Hence, the body of sin in this verse and the flesh of sin in 8:3 refer to the same thing."

Nor would I see the 'body of sin' in this context as the individual body of the saint. I see it rather as the Satanic counterfeit of the Church, the body of Christ. This is humanity under the wrong head. Later when Paul wants to refer to the individual's body he uses the phrase 'mortal body'.

I think we can best understand the 'new man' by contrast with the 'new man'. These two 'one man' individuals cannot co-exist in a single person. We are either indwelt by the old 'one' and are 'in Adam' or we are indwelt by the 'new one' and are 'in Christ'.

Just my thoughts... :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 14:48Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
So is it the material body that is somehow sinful and if so, how can that be and how does that differ from dualism? If the body is sinful simply as a human 'body' then Christ's body would have been shot through also with Sin. This opens the door to a discussion of the transmission of Sin- is it physical, metaphysical, or something else?



The Body of sin or 'the flesh" as created by God was not sinfull. It became corrupted and fallen through the eating of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. Paul in roman's 7:17,18 says, "Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, nothing good dwells".

H. C. G. Moule in his Greek commentary, "Studies in Romans" says regarding 6:6:

"The body of sin - I.e. the body regarded as a special seat and stronghold of sin."

The footnote in the RcV on Romans 7:18 says:

"The flesh here is the fallen and corrupted human body with all its lusts. This flesh was not created by God but is a mixture of God's creature and sin, which is the life of Satan, the evil one. God created man's body a pure vessel, but this vessel was corrupted and transmuted into the flesh by Satan's injecting himself into it at the time of the fall. Now Satan as sin personified is in man's flesh, making his home there and ruling as an illegal master, overruling man and forcing him to do things that he dislikes. It is this indwelling sin which is the unchangeable evil nature, that constitutes all men sinners."

Christ came in the "likeness of the flesh of sin" but without it's corruption. Just as in John 3, the Brazen Serpant held up by Moses was the likeness of the Serpant but not the Serpant, Jesus said, 'Even so must the Son of Man be lifted up...

And in God's complete salvation in Christ, our spirit is first regenerated. Then day by day our soul is being renewed by the indwelling Spirit thorugh the washing of the Water in the Word. And eventually at the Lord's comming these bodies will be transfigured into His glorious image by the Same indwelling Spirit (or in resurrection regardng those who have died in Christ).

But till the Lord comes, our bodies are still the "seat of sin" and are under the sentance of death. But the Lord's redemption is full and complete. Even our bodies of this death will be transfigured and glorified. And in these bodeis today we groan, awaiting our full sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

I can testify, I have been a believer for 30 years and have enjoyed some genuine transformation and growth in Life, but my flesh today has not changed. It is still the same.

If I were to leave off prayer and contacting the Lord daily and leave off spending time in the Word and in the fellowship of the Saints, I would find my flesh asserting itself and the same desires and worldly lusts would gain in me. But thank God this is not necessary.

If we sow to the flesh, we shall from the flesh reap corruption, but if we sow to the spirit, we shall from the Spirit reap Life which is eternal.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/2 15:23Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
[u]Now Satan as sin personified is in man's flesh, making his home there and ruling as an illegal master[/u], overruling man and forcing him to do things that he dislikes. It is this indwelling sin which is the unchangeable evil nature, that constitutes all men sinners."



I think I would say something similar only I would reverse the order of "Now Satan as sin personified is in man's flesh, making his home there and ruling as an illegal master," and say now [u]Sin[/u] is personified in man's flesh ruling as an illegal master...

I know this all sounds like hair splitting, but for the longest time on these forums we have been discussing these issues trying to come to terms with just where Sin could be resident in a body or 'in the flesh' and [u]if[/u] during regeneration one is totally cleansed of this contamination that, under this model, is [u]in[/u] an individual.

I don't know that I am any closer to understanding the topic or not as I keep unearthing more and more questions as we dig into the subject. Ultimately our doctrine has to jibe with the Incarnation and cannot allow for death to be the final Savior.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/2 15:42Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I know this all sounds like hair splitting, but for the longest time on these forums we have been discussing these issues trying to come to terms with just where Sin could be resident in a body or 'in the flesh' and if during regeneration one is totally cleansed of this contamination that, under this model, is in an individual.



This is where most treatments of this subject go wrong. Regeneration does not cleanse our flesh. Regeneration regerates our spirit. And the Spirit from within our spirit renews, sanctifies and transforms our soul.

But Paul's whole treatment of this in Romans 6,7, and 8 show us the flesh is still present with us, It is still the same, It has not been "clensed" by regeneration. On the contrary Romans's 6 shows us we have changed. We have died in Christ to sin and the flesh is rendered powerless or "without authority".

Before we were saved, we could only live by the flesh. It was our master. But today we are in Christ and no longer under it's authority.

But till the end, "The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh" and we must "put to death the deeds of the body".

If we beleive our flesh is changed we are wrong. It has not. But we are not to live according to the flesh "for the mind set on the flesh is death" but "the mind set on the spirit is Life and peace."

This is consistent throughout the New Testament. It is the same in Romans and in Galatians. Until the Lord comes we will need to abide in Christ. We will need to keep ourselves minding the spirit. We will need to feed on Christ and be transformed by Him. We will need to be in the fellowship of the Body of Christ to recieve the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. We will need to be strengthed by His Spirit into our inner man that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith...

And we should never be surprised by anything we find in ourselves. If we beieve that our flesh has been cleansed, then when sin rises up in us we will be shaken. We will say, 'What is this, I must not be saved... How could someone saved feel this way or want such a thing..." But if we know our flesh it will not surprise us, we will simply turn to the Lord and confess. "Thank you Lord for your precious blood and for your indwelling Life. "Lord save Me from myself." And thus we will experience His Saving Life within us.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/2 16:02Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Graftedbranch,

Thanks for the reply. I would say that I agreed with that view and argued viciously for it until the last few years. Today, after a more in depth study and also a look at the topic from some different angles has me wondering if we are free-er (for lack of a better word) than we think. I have some pretty well written arguments here on SI in the articles section that were taken from these forums on the side you mention. However, I have reconsidered [i]much[/i] of it in light of many teachings I have since read and heard. Some are Ron's and others like Finney and Wesley. One of which I would particularly recommend is Paris Reidhead's [url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID0114.mp3]The Tragedy of Third Generation Religion.[/url]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/2 16:34Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Graftedbranch's

Quote:
But Paul's whole treatment of this in Romans 6,7, and 8 show us the flesh is still present with us,


What is your definition of 'the flesh' and how do you interpret“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Rom. 7:5, KJVS)

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
(Rom. 8:8-9, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 18:08Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,



I like this footnote on 8:8,9

"Verses 8 and 9 emphasise the word in, showing that the stress here is on condition and and experience more than on the source and position".

_____

That is to say "to be in the flesh' in this context is not just a matter of our position but of our experience. To be in Adam or in Christ as in Romans 5 and 6 is positional. But to be "in the flesh or in the spirit is a matter of our condition and experience.

On the one hand, an unbeliever is one "in the flesh". The flesh is his sphere of living. He is a person wholly in the flesh.

On the other hand a believer is one "in the spirit' that is the Spirit is his sphere of living.

While it is possible to be a believer and in experience be "in the flesh", the flesh is not his sphere. He is a person in the Spirit "if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you". But it is impossible for an unbeliever to be "in the spirit' because his spirit is dead and he "does not have the Spirit of Christ".

Graftedbranch


 2006/2/2 21:06Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
However, I have reconsidered much of it in light of many teachings I have since read and heard. Some are Ron's and others like Finney and Wesley.



With all due respect to Wesley and Finny, (and I have spent much time especially studying Wesley's views on sanctification), while they are very good to a point, in the end the Word of God is our source of truth. Frankly, they are not so clear.

I have found the views of Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray, H. C. G. Moule, Watchman Nee, and others in the same stream to be more scriptural, more cohesive, more true to experience, and have found the "Amen" im my spirit.

The views of Wesley and Finny while sounding good, are just not what the scriptures teach.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/2 21:14Profile





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