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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Define a Jew

Quote:
there are still some things which the Lord can only do through the Jews and not the gentiles



What Jews would this be referring to?

Actually, what is a Jew?
Are they defined by religion, nationality, culture, or geneology?
What about proselytes - those whose ancestors adopted Judaism?
What about Jews who have integrated with other cultures through dispersions?

And would a modern definition of "Jew" be the same as that used in Scripture - descendent of the House of Judah... Is that important?

Why did geneological records get lost if ancestoral line was important to God's fulfillment?

It seems to get very complicated when we try to define this people group.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/2/17 20:39Profile









 Re:

Ironman said

Quote:
we haven't replaced the Jews because they will be grafted back in and the tree will be complete.

I hate to say this, but, narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few there be who find it. A person's ethnicity, nationality, or previous religion is not going to help them.... that's the WHOLE point. We ALL lay EVERYTHING down. We come as individual [i]people[/i] to the Lord, one by one by one.

The Jews (I like Logic's description of this, but I don't know what anyone else thinks of it.) who are saved and grafted back into the olive tree, will, like the rest of us be the ones God always knew would accept the Messaiah. We are as incomplete without them, as they are without us.

Diane,

It occurred to me today there may yet be a scientific way of defining 'Jew' before the end arrives, if DNA analysis continues to develop. I'm not suggesting this would be a [i]good[/i] thing, but, the alternative is 'the Lord knows the hearts that are His'.... (which in the end is all that matters....)... which also takes it right out of human control.

 2006/2/17 20:54
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

jimbob wrote:

Quote:
The problem with the dispensational idea of seperate plans for the church and Israel, is that the new testament writers repeatedly took scriptures that were given specifically to the Jews (along with Jewish rites and ceremonies)and re-interprit and apply them to the Church, proving for us 'replacement' types that there is only one people of God.



Read Romans 11. God hasn't forgotten them and will graft them back in. So we realy haven't replaced them but only for the time being.

I have a question: Do you think that God has totaly disowned Israel and totaly replaced Israel with His Church, never to take Israel back?

jimbob wrote:
Quote:
Please note that you also just took a scripture written to the Jews and applied it to the Church.(WE couldn't keep it...)



I figured you would know what I mean when I said we couldn't keep it. But Like all of humanity, The childeren of Israel couldn't keep the Law writen on stone.
I relaited to all of humanity because God still usese His law writen on stone to convict all people of sin. God puts all humanity under His law.

How does God proove our sins? He uses the Law.
Our sins are the evidence of the Law that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been washed away by His atoning blood, then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment. How is the Law used? The Law is used to show us that [b]we[/b] cannot uphold the law and [b]we[/b] are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows [b]us[/b] that [b]we[/b] sin, it also shows us why [b]we[/b] need to be changed most of all

 2006/2/18 4:22Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Actually, what is a Jew?



For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2:28-29

Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is [b]of[/b] the Jews. But the hour cometh, and [i]now is[/i], when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:20-24

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:28


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Mike Balog

 2006/2/18 5:23Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Jews

Quote:
Do you think that God has totaly disowned Israel and totaly replaced Israel with His Church

Quote:
true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit


It would seem that all are included in the grace offered by God.

Another question:
Rev. 2:9 the "slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
Rev. 3:9 "who claim to be Jews but are not."

Who are these people?
Are these words for today?
What kind of slander might this be?
Am I tredding on dangerous territory by asking this?
Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/18 6:19Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: sorry to be nit picky, but I Love the WORD of GOD

sorry to be nit picky, but I Love the WORD of GOD and I am a word smith.

crsschk wrote:

Quote:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Joh 4:20-24



that version which says "God is [b]a[/b] Spirit"?is in error becuase John 4:24 should read “God is spirit. . . .”
[pneuma ho theos], not “a spirit,” or “the Spirit,” but “spirit”—as to God’s essence or nature (qualitative).

The literal reading of John 4:24 is: "God is spirit" ( pneuma ho theos). The word "spirit" ( pneuma) is an anarthrous predicate nominative that comes before the subject (lit: "spirit the God" ), hence grammatically, "spirit" cannot be translated indefinite: "a spirit,." but rather qualitative: "spirit," denoting as to the quality of God- namely as to His nature: He is spirit, thus the text does not read: has a spirit but is spirit.

Gos [b]has[/b] a Spirit whom we call "the Holy Spirit"

God has flesh in whom we cal "Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ"

But God the Father is totaly other than, neither "a Spirit" nor flesh.

And you didn't answer my question, Do you think that God has totaly disowned Israel and totaly replaced Israel with His Church?

Jews who are not jews are the ones that aren't cicrumsised in the heart.
Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Colos. 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 2006/2/18 6:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

logic's

Quote:
that version which says "God is a Spirit"?is in error becuase John 4:24 should read “God is spirit. . . .”
[pneuma ho theos], not “a spirit,” or “the Spirit,” but “spirit”—as to God’s essence or nature (qualitative).

I too love words and the word of God, hence my logo. As far as I can see the NASB was the first version to omit the 'definite article' and has been followed subsequently by most versions, including the NKJV but I think you are right to say that the KJV can be bettered here.

I am not so comfortable with the deductions that you seem to be making from it.
Quote:
He is spirit, thus the text does not read: has a spirit but is spirit.

Gos [b]has[/b] a Spirit whom we call "the Holy Spirit"

God has flesh in whom we cal "Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ"

But God the Father is totaly other than, neither "a Spirit" nor flesh.

I am not sure what point you are making here. The neither text has 'has (a) spirit' [i]pneuma o theos[/i] The plainest sense would seem to be 'God is Spirit'. We have had some struggles elsewhere on SI regarding Trinitarian views and I want to be sure I understand what you are saying here.

John 4:24 is NOT saying "God has a Spirit whom we call 'the Holy Spirit'" It is simply saying that God's nature is 'spirit' rather than any physical. The context remember is 'where we should worship Him'. The point of the Lord's comment is that the 'place' is irrelevant because 'God is Spirit'.

Your statement that God has [u]a Spirit[/u] whom we call the 'Holy Spirit, is unfortunate. God does not have 'a spirit' in the way that you and I 'have a spirit'. In Trinitarian terms 'God is Spirit' is applicable to each person of the godhead. The Father is Spirit, The Word is Spirit, and the Spirit is Spirit. The Word [u]became[/u] flesh but did not thereby cease to be Spirit. The Father has never 'become' flesh, nor has the Spirit.

When we refer to men having a body and a soul and a spirit, these are constitutent 'parts' of what it means to be human. Death separates these constituents and resurrection re-unites them. So we would never say 'Man is Spirit' we would have to say 'man has a spirit'. Nor can we really say 'man is flesh'. to be 'pedantic' we really ought to say that 'man has flesh'. If man is anything, he is soul. God has no 'constituent parts'. The Father is wholly God, the Word is wholly God, the Spirit is wholly God.

To say, as you do, that God is 'neither a spirit nor flesh' is confusing. I would need you either to omit the indefinite article or supply it both times. If you mean mean 'God is not a spirit, and God is not a body' I would have to say that I disagree with you. God is Spirit. 'Flesh or Spirit' is a continuing contrast of John's record. This passage is simply repeating this contrast; God is not physically located ie in flesh, but is Spirit and hence must be worshipped in spirit and truth.

Darby's 'pedantic' translation has “God [is] a spirit; and they who worship him must worship [him] in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 DRBY). The words in square brackets being omitted in the Greek. Consequently the original does not say either 'God has' or 'God is' spirit. The reader is expected to supply the verb. I suggest that the most obvious choice would be 'is'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/18 7:40Profile









 Re: When the 1/3 Marches In.

When are the unbelieving Jews saved ?

Zech. 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zech. 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zech. 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zech. 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zech. 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zech. 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zech. 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zech. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zech. 12:10 [u]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/u]

Zec 13:8 [u]And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.[/u]
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Etc. of 14 ...

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs:
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
[u]John 19:37 And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.[/u]

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and [u]they also which pierced him[/u]: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 2006/2/18 8:04
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Another question:
Rev. 2:9 the "slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
Rev. 3:9 "who claim to be Jews but are not."


A good question, hadn't give it much thought.

[b]And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not[/b]; who asserted themselves to be the true Israel of God, Jews that were so inwardly, regenerate persons, or truly Christians; for the Christians, baptized persons (m), were by the Heathens called Jews; but these were not, they professed Christianity in words, but in works denied it; they were men of bad principles and practices, and both blasphemed the ways and doctrines of Christ themselves, and caused them to be blasphemed by others also; they were false Christians, nominal professors, and shunned persecution for the Gospel; who were not what they would be thought to be: these were the broachers of heresies in this period of time, in which there was a multitude of them, and which chiefly respected the doctrine of the Trinity, and the person of Christ; and they were introducers of Pagan and Jewish rites into the church, and were men of flagitious lives and conversations, and paved the way for the man of sin:

[b]but are the synagogue of Satan[/b]: were the children of the devil, imitated him, and were influenced by him, and were the forerunners of antichrist, whose coming was after the working of Satan,

John Gill


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/2/18 8:08Profile









 Re: Blasphemy

Blasphemy is the key word here.

I remember we had a good thread just on "blasphemy" here last year ... where it was brought out clearly, that one who calls the workings of the Holy Spirit through a Christian, from the devil, is considered to be "blasphemy".

Dangerous ground to trod, indeed.

Vincent's Word Studies ...
"Blasphemy (βλασφημιαν)
See on Mar_7:22. Not primarily direct blasphemy against God, but reviling at believers."

 2006/2/18 8:27





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