SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Make it simple

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )
PosterThread
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: The 144,000 & the the twelve tribes of Israel

144,000 The following list, is not a list of Israel or the twelve tribes of Israel, but rather it is a picture. If it were a list of Israel, it must begin with Reuben. Because Reuben was the first born. Number two on the list would be Ephraim, but he has been left out. That’s a bit like leaving out Washington DC from the states of America. Dan is also left out, while Joseph has been included, but there is no tribe of Joseph, because Joseph gave his inheritance to his two sons, Ephraim and Manassah, who are themselves both tribes, but there is no such thing as the tribe of Joseph.

The tribe of Levi has been included, but Levi was never included, because they were priests, they didn’t own any land, and therefore had no inheritance. NO this is not a list of Israel at all, this is another picture. The first born in this list is Judah. The leader of this picture is Judah.

Two or three chapters of Genesis describe why each tribe was called by the name it was, it goes into the details of how the mother felt the day she got pregnant, how she felt when she was having the baby, and why the mother called the child that name. The events around the birth of those boys were so arranged by God, that when you put the names together, you suddenly hear the whole gospel in the names of those boys. Now we can understand why one has to be left out here, and one has to be left out there, because they do not fit this picture. This picture is an unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ.

The first name is Judah. Judah means Praised or celebrated.

The second name is Reuben. The name Reuben means Behold a Son.

The third one is called Gad. Gad means a Great Company,

The fourth name is Asher. The name Asher means ‘Happy’, ‘Joy filled’.

The fifth name is Naphtali. Naphtali means to wrestle and overcome.

The sixth name is Manasseh. Manasseh means ‘forgetting’. Joseph gave that name to his son – remember when Joseph was sold down the river to Egypt and thrown into prison as a slave, finally after it was all over, he was made prime minister, he married and had his son Manasseh – finally I have forgotten all my troubles, and I have forgotten all the ill that was done to me.

The seventh name is Simeon. Simeon means ‘hearing’ ‘My sheep hear my voice’ this is another key verse to the early part of Revelation – He who has ears to hear, let him hear ‘

The eighth name is Levi. Levi means ‘joined to’.

The ninth name is Issachar. Issachar means ‘A price was paid’.

The tenth named is Zebulon which means a dwelling-place. Ephesians 2.20 says that we have become the dwelling place of God through the Spirit.

The eleventh mentioned is Joseph. Joseph means ‘Adding, fruitful’
Remember, there is no tribe of Joseph. He gave his inheratance to his sons.

Then lastly number twelve Benjamin. Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin, and as she was dying, she took the little child, and because of the horror and agony of her death, she named him "Banoni" and Banoni means ‘Son of my deep sorrow’. The Father would have none of it, and he changed the name of Banoni to Benjamin, which means ‘Son of my right hand’. This is a perfect picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Banoni-Benjamin. He is the Son of my sorrow, and after the sorrow was over, he arose again and became the Son of his Father’s right hand.

And so this great company could be looked at from all those twelve different angles, and you could say, this is the Israel of God, Israel is not a nation like India or France, but it is a nation of believers with a heartfelt faith for God. All through the Old Testament Israel is seen as the vine. Jesus said I am the true vine! In other words I am the true Israel of God. The Israel of God can only be found in Jesus. The Bible is about HIM, and the book of Revelation is about Him. The first sentence in the book of Revelation states, "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The true Israel of God starts with the promise made to Abraham. The Israel of God is made up of all of the Old Testament believers that are looking forward to the promised Messiah. The promise is completed in the finished work of Christ. Now when all of the gentiles, that is, all of the Jews and non Jews, that are cut off from God’s covenant in Christ. When all of the gentiles have come in, then Israel will be completed and saved. God told Jacob to change his name from Jacob to Israel. A lot of Hebrew names have different variations of meanings Israel means ‘To be a prince with God’ Israel also means ‘To rule with God.’ Israel also means, ‘To be ruled by God’ Therefore for a man to be part of Gods Israel, and to rule with God, the man must first be broken and ruled by God.

The Lion of the Tribe of Judah leads Israel, the complete Church of God. Now it says that each one of them was sealed. A seal in the Bible speaks of ownership. Many slaves had the name of their owner stamped on to their forehead. They were sealed, they were owned, and if someone owned you, they looked after you.

What about the number, 144,000? We are back to those 12’s again. 3x4 is 12, and 3 x 4 is 12, 12 x 12 is 144,? So we are back again to the 12 of the Old Testament, 12 of the New Testament, and 12 x 12 gives us 144, but then it is x10 x10 x10. Ten is the perfection of number. You count 1-10, stop at 10 and begin at 1 again, so 10 is the perfection of number. Times 3 is the symbolic number of the Tri-unity. 144,000 gives me an idea, it does not speak of a number, and the idea is [b]the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament, the completed Israel of God the holy nation of all believers since the promise to Abraham.[/b] Within this number of 144,000 all of Israel is saved. You will notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it
This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Chuch and saved Israel makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from V:9 as the rapture takeing place.

 2006/2/15 18:00Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro logic
you said:

Quote:
144,000 The following list, is not a list of Israel or the twelve tribes of Israel, but rather it is a picture. If it were a list of Israel, it must begin with Reuben. Because Reuben was the first born. Number two on the list would be Ephraim, but he has been left out. That’s a bit like leaving out Washington DC from the states of America. Dan is also left out, while Joseph has been included, but there is no tribe of Joseph, because Joseph gave his inheritance to his two sons, Ephraim and Manassah, who are themselves both tribes, but there is no such thing as the tribe of Joseph.



but the word says

[b]And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [/b]

all the tribes says the word. then also i think it's important to look at what Israel said to his sons before he died. he said this if reuben in genesis chapt 49:

[b]3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: 4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch. [/b]

thou shalt not excel means that he wouldn't be of much significance because of what he did in defiling his father's bed. i think this is a hint if not a/the reason as to why Reuben isn't mentioned first.

but then Jacob said this of Judah in the same chapter:



[b]8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. 9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: 12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. [/b]

Christ came from the tribe of Judah, perhaps this is why Judah is mentioned first in addition to what Jacob said?

bro Ron (philologos) mentioned a couple of pages back that the tribe of Dan was the one which embraced idolatry first and it's exclusion here may have to do with how God hates idolatry. something to think about.

i think levi is left out in past times because as the tribes were listed it may have had to do with the land and distribution thereof.

Quote:
And so this great company could be looked at from all those twelve different angles, and you could say, this is the Israel of God, Israel is not a nation like India or France, but it is a nation of believers with a heartfelt faith for God. All through the Old Testament Israel is seen as the vine. Jesus said I am the true vine! In other words I am the true Israel of God. The Israel of God can only be found in Jesus. The Bible is about HIM, and the book of Revelation is about Him. The first sentence in the book of Revelation states, "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ.



is this replacement theology? it seems to me that there is a distinction somehow between the jew and the gentile as it pertains to the Lord's purposes on this side. so to say the church is Israel isn't true at all. it seems rather weird that we're one in Christ but we are still on some levels for God's purposes, Jews and Gentiles.

Quote:
What about the number, 144,000? We are back to those 12’s again. 3x4 is 12, and 3 x 4 is 12, 12 x 12 is 144,? So we are back again to the 12 of the Old Testament, 12 of the New Testament, and 12 x 12 gives us 144, but then it is x10 x10 x10. Ten is the perfection of number. You count 1-10, stop at 10 and begin at 1 again, so 10 is the perfection of number. Times 3 is the symbolic number of the Tri-unity. 144,000 gives me an idea, it does not speak of a number, and the idea is the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament, the completed Israel of God the holy nation of all believers since the promise to Abraham. Within this number of 144,000 all of Israel is saved. You will notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it.This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Chuch and saved Israel makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from V:9 as the rapture takeing place.



well it seems to me that in chapt 14 there is another 144000 which is the firstfruits of all men which are all virgins which are separate from the 144000 from Israel. also it doesn't make sense for this 144000 in chapt 14 to be a symbol of the whole church because later on in chapt 14 the word says this in chapt 14 vs 13:

[b]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: F23 Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [/b]

if the whole church is in heaven at this time (assuming the 144000 virgins in chapt 14 or the 144000 in chapt 7 are a symbol of the church) then why would there still be people dying for the Lord on earth after the rapture in vs 9 of chapt 7 in chapt 14 ? i've asked this a couple of times before and not gotten an answer, can someone explain this? :-? :-?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/2/16 0:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
is this replacement theology? it seems to me that there is a distinction somehow between the jew and the gentile as it pertains to the Lord's purposes on this side. so to say the church is Israel isn't true at all. it seems rather weird that we're one in Christ but we are still on some levels for God's purposes, Jews and Gentiles.



What does Paul mean when he says, "Israel of God"?

They are the true people of God.

Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Colosians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Both Jews and Gentiles?

Yes, only as long as they are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands

Ephes. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Ephesians explains this most in both chapt. 2 & 3

If the "Israel of God" implies Christians and only Christians make up the Church...isn't Paul calling the Church the "True" Israel of GoD?

Yes, but don't forget that the actual Nation of Israel (even though unsaved) remains his also.
Don't get cought up in the replacement theology which is the church today is replaces Israel. Some promises in the Bible can be only for the Nation of Israel.

Gen. 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

He still claims Israel as His:
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

The whole end times revolve around the Nation Israel. In the end He will save them because they are His also.

Quote:
if the whole church is in heaven at this time (assuming the 144000 virgins in chapt 14 or the 144000 in chapt 7 are a symbol of the church) then why would there still be people dying for the Lord on earth after the rapture in vs 9 of chapt 7 in chapt 14 ? i've asked this a couple of times before and not gotten an answer, can someone explain this?



in Rev. 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."
This half hour is half a season, so therefor it would mark a division of the 7 years. A division of the False pease with the wrath of the devil which is the persecution of the true Church from Gods' wrath. We are not appointed to wrath. I don't think it it smack dab in the middle, but some where in between.

[b]notice[/b]
Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
[b]Then[/b]
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[b]So[/b]
This wouldbe a jump to the final end.
Chapters 12-16 is a whole new Vision of the same thing.
[b]then[/b]
Capt. 17 tells about the "Mystery" vv17:5
Chapt. 18:1 "[b]And after these things[/b] I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory."
In Chapt 19 another [b]And after these things[/b]
Chapt.20 the word "then" could also be an [b]"And after these things"[/b]

Remember the Bowl & the Trumpets are all in the 6th and 7th seal and the bBowls are all in the 6th and 7th trumpet.
You can't read Revelations as chronologicly linier in time from chapter to chapter although some chapters are.

[b]Notice:[/b] the same three things happening in three diferent chapters.

Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

 2006/2/16 13:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Don't get cought up in the replacement theology which is the church today is replaces Israel. Some promises in the Bible can be only for the Nation of Israel.


Israel, as a nation, was the creation of the Sinai covenant. “Now therefore, [u]if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be[/u] a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and [u]an holy nation[/u]. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”
(Ex 19:5-6 KJVS) Of that 'first' covenant the writer to the Hebrews declares...Heb. 8:7 (KJVS) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb. 8:13 (KJVS) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 9:1 (KJVS) Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb. 10:9 (KJVS) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. If 'to take away the first [u]so that[/u] he may establish the second' is not 'replacement', what is it?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/16 18:13Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
If 'to take away the first so that he may establish the second' is not 'replacement', what is it?



Replacement Theology is not true. It basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

Heb. 8:7 (KJVS) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb. 8:13 (KJVS) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 9:1 (KJVS) Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb. 10:9 (KJVS) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

But

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a [b]new covenant[/b] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:...

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts[/b]; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It is the same Law but the only difference between the Old and New covenent is that [b]the New is written on our hearts[/b] and the Old is on stone.

When it was on stone, we couldn't keep it because we had to keep the law by our flesh.

Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"


 2006/2/16 19:02Profile









 Re:Simple jcheinrichs ?

Excuse me just a minute .... I have another message for jcheinrichs.


Hey bro jcheinrichs, if your icon is a guy, praying on his face, I hope that's true, cuz you started this.


Thanks loads :-( .

Shalom & Agape.
Annie



Ding - Resume 9th Round.

 2006/2/16 20:58
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

The problem with the dispensational idea of seperate plans for the church and Israel, is that the new testament writers repeatedly took scriptures that were given specifically to the Jews (along with Jewish rites and ceremonies)and re-interprit and apply them to the Church, proving for us 'replacement' types that there is only one people of God.


Logic wrote;

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a [b]new covenant[/b] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:...

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts[/b]; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It is the same Law but the only difference between the Old and New covenent is that [b]the New is written on our hearts[/b] and the Old is on stone.

When it was on stone, we couldn't keep it because we had to keep the law by our flesh.




Please note that you also just took a scripture written to the Jews and applied it to the Church.(WE couldn't keep it...)

 2006/2/17 5:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Replacement Theology is not true. It basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.


It is of course, its opponents who call it 'replacement theology'. I have been accused of this little list of crimes above, but I think of myself as as a subscriber to 'fulfillment theology'.

Quote:
Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:...

Now if you are going to quote this section you really ought not to break off in the middle of it...“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [u]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers[/u] in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:”
(Jer 31:31-32 KJVS)...where is states quite clearly that the new covenant would not be 'according to the old covenant'; in other words 'quite different'.

This passage refers to the Northern Kingdom of Israel (house of Israel) and to the Southern Kingdom of Judah (house of Judah). In 722BC the Northern kingdom walked out of history and into legend.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/17 5:28Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic

Quote:
Remember the Bowl & the Trumpets are all in the 6th and 7th seal and the bBowls are all in the 6th and 7th trumpet.



this is something to think about, in the study on the revelation by watchman nee i've been going through he says that the 7 trumpets are part of the openning of the 7th seal and that the 7 bowls are a part of the last trumpet.

Quote:
You can't read Revelations as chronologicly linier in time from chapter to chapter although some chapters are.



still unsure of this part though but will look into it, i hadn't thought of this though.

thanks bro


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/2/17 12:17Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 replacement theology what?

brethren it seems to me that there are still some things which the Lord can only do through the Jews and not the gentiles so there is still a disctinction in that regard. we as gentiles can't build the Lord's temple in the future so that it may be desecrated by the antichrist. we have been grafted in and in time the Jews will be brought back into the olive tree. we haven't replaced the Jews because they will be grafted back in and the tree will be complete.

from romans 11

[b] 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, F44 and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed F46 God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, F47 that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded F48 them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/b]


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/2/17 12:31Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy