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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
Symbolism doesn't mean that there isn't a matching reality, it just means that we won't see 'bowls of altar ashes' tumbling through the skies.



you had me trippin there for a minute :-P


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/14 0:12Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas
i understand about moses marrying an ethiopian and there being jews who are from different nations but are still jews. the multitude which couldn't be numbered is made up of gentiles it seems to me. also those 144000 are servants of God it says, sealed for a certain work which required heavenly intervention so the earth wouldn't be harmed during the time they were being sealed.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/14 0:16Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:

that's why it says they are a firstfruits, the firstfruits can't be the whole shabang bro.



Do a word search on "first fruits" in the new testament, you will see the word refers to Christ and His church. Not 144,000 Jews, not literal....

 2006/2/14 4:40Profile









 Re: Make it simple

I'm still trying to picture what jcheinrichs is doing ... aren't you ? Ha !


Oh, did I hear someone ask, who's jcheinrichs ?


Well, all we know is that, he's only posted once so far and that was 8 pages ago.

rotflmho ~ :lol:

 2006/2/14 8:28
amos54
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Joined: 2006/2/6
Posts: 8


 Re:

You guys all make me laugh!

Do any of you find it odd that the most posts are on whether or not the bible is simple... what really matters?

 2006/2/14 8:49Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob
i said a couple of posts back that there were or seemed to be at least 2 separate groups of 144000, 144000 from the 12 tribes of Israel which are not virgins (chapt 7) then 144000 of the firstfruits of all men and these are virgins, they are gentiles bro not Jews. Now i ask again, if this is symbolic of the whole church, then why does the word then say later on in chapter 14 this

[b]13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, F80 "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You F81 to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."[/b]

if there are people still dying even after the firstfruits have been taken up, then that says that the whole Church has not yet made it to heaven and there are still some on the earth, therefore the assertation that the 144000 in chapt 14 is the church is wrong. also i looked up first fruits in the N.T. and as per the kjv there are 7 references.

here are a couple of examples of how the firstfruits like the name suggests that it's a portion of the whole. originally in the O.T. the very first fruits that were ripe in the season were collected up and given up to God, all the fruit didn't ripen at once.

[b]1 Corinthians 15:20-34 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep[/b]

Christ is not every dead person but He was the first to be resurrected, there are yet many who await the resurrection.



[b]1 Corinthians 16:13-18 13 Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done with love. 15 I urge you, brethren--you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints-- 16 that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us.[/b]

The house of the man named here was the first in the province of Achaia to convert to Christianity, the whole province didn't convert with him.

i hope that clears it up. there are 2 groups of 144000, in chapt 7 it is a group of Jews in chapt 14 it is the firstfruits of the church. and also after this firstfruits is taken up to heaven, there are still saints left on earth who will be martyred so the whole church is not in heaven at this time. it seems to me though bro that a lot of people are waiting to be raptured, i think most are waiting in vain because there is much work to be done first. the Church is in nowise going to escape a general persecution wherever she may be in the world, even here in America people will be martyred for Christ. the fact that a lot of people will still be here when such things happen i think is going to add to the great falling away because many expecting to be raptured will be so disillusioned when they are left behind and will reject Christ.

personally, i want to stay behind and work. The Lord's made it plain i'll be here a while working so it makes easier to want it. i want to be used of God to whatever degree He desires, if it be the crown of martyrdom, i'll take it, in fact i want it. whatever other glory the Lord wants me to have in heaven as a result of whatever He uses me for here i want it ALL. if the seating arrangement in heaven is such that we're arranged in rows before His throne and He wants me to be in the front, that's where i want to be, not the 3rd row, nor the 2nd, but the 1st one.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/14 11:36Profile









 Re: Make it simple


Hi Ironman,

Maybe I shouldn't have commented, but, if the Church is made up of all nationalities of people whose first birth has become less relevant than their second birth, then whether they were Jews or Gentiles originally, may vanish without trace, even though the fact of Jews being saved, and having a 'special' place in history, is, of course, indubitable. I am still trying to work out what difference it makes, but, Paul did say he is a Jew who is one inwardly - so that makes us [i]all[/i] Jews inwardly.

 2006/2/14 13:54
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis dorcas

Quote:
Maybe I shouldn't have commented, but, if the Church is made up of all nationalities of people whose first birth has become less relevant than their second birth, then whether they were Jews or Gentiles originally, may vanish without trace, even though the fact of Jews being saved, and having a 'special' place in history, is, of course, indubitable. I am still trying to work out what difference it makes, but, Paul did say he is a Jew who is one inwardly - so that makes us all Jews inwardly.



you know i'm not sure what difference it makes save for the fact that Jews are God's chosen people while we're grrafted in. i don't think that we become Jews inwardly when we come to Christ, i think Paul here is talking about how the outward signs don't make one a Jew but the circumcision of the heart does though. On this side it seems that there will always be that distinction between Jew and gentile and it serves some purpose in God's plan.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/14 17:14Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Maybe I shouldn't have commented, but, if the Church is made up of all nationalities of people whose first birth has become less relevant than their second birth, then whether they were Jews or Gentiles originally, may vanish without trace, even though the fact of Jews being saved, and having a 'special' place in history, is, of course, indubitable. I am still trying to work out what difference it makes, but, Paul did say he is a Jew who is one inwardly - so that makes us all Jews inwardly.



It is written that "In Him (Christ) there can be no Jew, Greek, barbarian, sythian, slave, or freemam."

In Christ's death on the Cross He terminated in Himself all the distinctions. And in Him was created the "One New Man", in whom there can be no Jew, Greek, etc.

Distinctions of race, nationality, social status, etc. were abolished in Christ's death on the Cross and in resurrection the ONe New Man is brought into being. In the One New Man Christ is All and in all. There is none of these things. But all are the same having the same Life, the Same Lord, the Same hope, the same everything.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/15 16:25Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 The Four Horsemen of The Revelations’ of Jesus Christ

May I give you all something to think about. I've always been qurious of the four horsemen so I made a study on them and found that since Revelations can interprate it'self to a point I needed to look at how some parts of revelation meshed with other parts. So I linked the forhorsemen with the Historical part of the Book

The Revelations’ of Jesus Christ Chapter 6: the Seals.
1st Seal
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a [b]bow[/b]; and a [b]crown[/b] was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

I refer this horse to Jesus in chapter 12: 5-9 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan.

Greek Definitions:
5115. toxon tox'-on from the base of 5088; [b]a bow[/b] (apparently as the simplest [b]fabric[/b] ):--bow.
4735. stephanos stef'-an-os from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, 1238), literally or figuratively:--crown.

The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2
The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize.

2nd Seal
Rev 6:3 and when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 and there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take [b]peace[/b] from the earth, and that they should [b]kill[/b] one another: and there was given unto him a great [b]sword[/b].

4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--[b]kill[/b], slay, wound.
1515. eirene i-ray'-nay probably from a primary verb eiro (to join); [b]peace[/b] (literally or figuratively); by implication, prosperity:--one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

3162. machaira makh'-ahee-rah probably feminine of a presumed derivative of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; figuratively, war, judicial punishment:--[b]sword[/b].

I refer these verses to Chapter 12:10-17, which represents the World and it's hatered for Christ and His Church. The color red is like blood. This is when martyrdom started to happen. Martyrs are always butchered or slaughtered.
The rider on this horse also has the same kind of sword that Jesus said to have brought and the same peace that He did not come to send in Mattew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
The sword could be thought of in a judicial sense for God's Judgment.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2919. krino kree'-no properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

3rd Seal
Rev 6:5 and when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of [b]balances[/b] in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice [b]in the midst of the four beasts[/b] say, a measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

2218. zugos dzoo-gos' from the root of zeugnumi. 1) a yoke a) a [b]yoke[/b] that is put on draught cattle b) metaph., used of any burden or bondage 1) as that of slavery 2) of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept 2) a balance, [b]pair of scales[/b].

I refer this horse to Chapter12: 10-17 aslo, since it dosn't say if there is any time between the two horses. This one represents persecution both economically, and Spiritually of Israel and the Church. This horse is bringing economic persecution as governments are in charge of the economy.

Note: this balance could also be a yoke in which God yokes us with Israel.

Note: the voice was heard in the [b]midst of the four beasts[/b], which would be the Lamb speeking.

4th Seal
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to [b]kill[/b] with [b]sword[/b], and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

615. apokteino ap-ok-ti'-no from 575 and kteino 1) [b]to kill[/b] in any way whatever a) to destroy, to allow to perish 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish a) to inflict mortal death b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

4501. rhomphaia hrom-fah'-yah probably of foreign origin; a sabre, i.e. a long and broad cutlass (any weapon of the kind, literally or figuratively):--[b]sword[b].

Note: The rider is the only one who is named with the one who follows.
I refer these verses to Chapter13:
Since there are two characters in this passage, they could be compared to the Anti-Christ and the false prophet.
The world has always tried to extinguish or abolish and even destroy the Jews and it also hates the true church of Christ since it hate Him first of all.

 2006/2/15 17:52Profile





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