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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

MeAgain's

Quote:
The Revelation was not written to remain a mystery until the Lord Returns to explain it to us, it was written to get us through it by 'understanding the times'.


I'm not sure that this is the case. Do we need to 'understand the times' in order to get us through them? If so, given the various interpretations held by different saints, I'm not sure it has 'worked'. Do we think that the Revelation will only have its point during the last 'seven years' or so of time? Given that over 1900 years has passed since John penned this prophecy and the final 7 years will be the time when this book 'comes into its own', as some surmise, the best percentages we can derive are that less than 0.04% of its potential readers (timewise) would really benefit from its truths and that is presuming that everone who reads it during the final seven years will understand it. This calculation may seem complicated but its just my way of saying the percentage of people who will 'get... through it by understanding the times' really is tiny.

As I said somewhere earlier the underlying theme of the Revelation is 'God is still on the Throne'. This truth has been immediately available to 100% of its readers since it was written.

I read it constantly, but I am not trying to deduce a timetable from it. There is an interesting insight into the 'purpose of prophecy' (I once started a thread on that topic...) in John's gospel “And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.” (John 14:29 KJVS) This is not the same as saying 'so that you will be ready for it'. Apparently one of the reasons is so that when 'the times' arrive we will recall His words and know that it is all in hand. I think this is the main purpose of the Revelation.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/13 8:47Profile
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
Nowhere does it say that the Lamb is symbolic, but we all believe it is. The book begins by saying it is in symbols. The difference is that sometimes the symbols are interpreted and sometime not. Take a look at Rev 13 and ask the question 'do I think this is literal?'



the first part of revelation 13 speaks to the false trinity, the dragon (satan) playing God, giving auhority to the second (leopard/bear) playing the false son and the last one which spoke like the dragon and exercised the dragon's power being a false holy spirit or rather the unholy spirit. will we see said beasts rise up, not sure but i wouldn't be surprised by it at all, in fact that would be a rather grand entrance on the beasts' part to get everyone's attention...

however do you think the worship of beast is literal?what of the mark without which noone can buy or sell? :-? what of the plagues and judgements which come as the trumpets are sounded and as the bowls are poured? :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 11:42Profile
jimbob
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 Re:

Quote:

As I said somewhere earlier the underlying theme of the Revelation is 'God is still on the Throne'. This truth has been immediately available to 100% of its readers since it was written.

.



Exactly! "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy" Rev 1:3

This is the only book of the bible that specifically promises a blessing to those who read and "hear" what the book is saying. I get no "blessing" from the idea that the book is for the future and mainly for the Jews of the future.

Ironman, about the "144,000". If you will note in Rev 7:4 That John "heard the number of those who were sealed..." But after he heard the descriptions of the tribes what happened?

"After these things I LOOKED, and BEHOLD, A GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could count..."

I understand this to be the very group of people that he "heard" in symbolic language was Israel, But when he "looked" he saw the entire church old covenant and new covenant.

One more thing about the 144,000,if this is literal language that desrcibes them, then how does one reconcile Rev 14:1-7 with this group of people? What I mean is nowhere in the bible are we told Israel is a group of chaste(VIRGIN)men. What no women in the 144,000?

Who are the "144,000 virgins" of Rev 14? Paul tells us the answer to that in 2 Cor 11:2"... for I betrothed you (the CHURCH) to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin."

This is all symbolism, and if you dwell on the symbolism, the answers will come, and so will the "blessing".

 2006/2/13 12:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Quote:
however do you think the worship of beast is literal?what of the mark without which noone can buy or sell?


Perhaps I haven't made this clear yet... but I think the book of the Revelation, like the apopcalyptic portions of Daniel and Zechariah, is full of symbols. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/13 12:31Profile
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 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
Perhaps I haven't made this clear yet... but I think the book of the Revelation, like the apopcalyptic portions of Daniel and Zechariah, is full of symbols.



i think you have made it clear, my small brain simply can't get around it that's all :-P

also bro Ron what of the bowls of anger and the plagues that come with them, what about the earthquakes and the bloody hail, and the death of large portions of humanity? these are all the Lord's judgements right? when has the Lord ever pronounced judgement and it only been symbolic ie not ever occurred? did Egypt then not suffer the 10 plagues? was Israel not destroyed time and time again? :-?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 12:42Profile
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 Re:

bro Jimbob

Quote:
Ironman, about the "144,000". If you will note in Rev 7:4 That John "heard the number of those who were sealed..." But after he heard the descriptions of the tribes what happened?



Quote:
"After these things I LOOKED, and BEHOLD, A GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could count..."




Quote:
I understand this to be the very group of people that he "heard" in symbolic language was Israel, But when he "looked" he saw the entire church old covenant and new covenant.



John said he heard the number of them that were sealed of the 12 tribes of Israel, this is not the whole nation of Israel but a select 144000 who had no relations with women FROM the nation of Israel. note then he says AFTER this (seems to be a separate even being talked of here) then there was the great multitude which he saw from all the other tongues, nations and kindreds which were NOT of Israel which says to me that the 144000 are separate from the multitude in ethnicity, the multitude is the church while the 144000 are Jews. if the 144000 are from the tribe of Israel then why does the word then go on to speak of all the other nations and tongues being part of the great multitude which noone could number?


Quote:
One more thing about the 144,000,if this is literal language that desrcibes them, then how does one reconcile Rev 14:1-7 with this group of people? What I mean is nowhere in the bible are we told Israel is a group of chaste(VIRGIN)men. What no women in the 144,000?



again bro Jimbob these men are the firstfruits or men not the whole nation of Israel as stated in rev 14 vs 4.and yes they are all men.

EDIT
i could be wrong about the above in light of this:
the 144000 in chapt 7 are from the 12 tribes of Israel (doesn't say that they are virgins here) but these ones here in chapt 14 are the firstfruits of men and are virgins (not from the nation of Israel), seems like 2 different groups perhaps. if they were the same why in the 1 instance is it 144000 from the 12 tribes and the other 144000 the firstfruits of men? also the 144000 from Israel are sealed and are called the servants of the father while the 144000 in chapt 14 are said to be sealed with the Father's name on their forheads. i've been checking out watchman nee's study on the revelation here and it's been quite eye-opening.

if the Lord leads, check it out.

http://ministrybooks.com/books.cfm?id=%23%24%28%2D%26%0A

it seems to me a certain amount of understanding comes with the promise of blessing as it pertains to the book of revelation. i mean even the heathen can hear, what blessing can they obtain from it? so then are the plagues that come with the trumpets and bowls symbolic too? where has the Lord pronounced judgement in the past and the judgement only been symbolic?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 13:17Profile
jimbob
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 Re:

Ironman, hey if you get a blessing from believing that there are 144,000 jewish virgins in heaven, more power to you, Just remember that your little group of saints, EXCLUDES all of the old testament people like MOSES, DAVID,ISAIAH, etc....Because they weren't virgins.

Now I will repeat who the virgins are one more time..." for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure VIRGIN." 2 Cor 11:2

The Church is the virgin,not the 144,000, this is SYMBOLISM! A "sign or symbol" does not point towards itself, but away from itself to something else.

Rev. 14:1, "Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000..."

If the 144,000 is literal, Then Jesus Christ is a literal sheep. Think about it.

 2006/2/13 14:39Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
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 Re:

bro Jimbob
like i said in the last post i'm probably wrong about this

Quote:
Ironman, hey if you get a blessing from believing that there are 144,000 jewish virgins in heaven, more power to you, Just remember that your little group of saints, EXCLUDES all of the old testament people like MOSES, DAVID,ISAIAH, etc....Because they weren't virgins.



i said that (in the edited version of my last post) that the 144000 in chapt 7 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, they are not the WHOLE nation of Israel just a part of it. then the 144000 in chapt 14 is not called from the 12 tribes of Israel, but the firstfruits of all men and they are virgins, chapt 7 doesn't say that the 144000 from Israel are virgins in fact, being a virgin is not considered a good thing except of course before marriage! also these 144000 in chapt 14 are purchased/redeemed from all men by the lamb, the O.T. saints were not redeemed this way at all, seems like a separate 144000 altogether.

also if the 144000 in chapt 14 represents the whole church in heaven already, then why the need for endurance and keeping the commandments of the Lord in vs 12 of chapt 14? that's why it says they are a firstfruits, the firstfruits can't be the whole shabang bro.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 14:50Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
also bro Ron what of the bowls of anger and the plagues that come with them, what about the earthquakes and the bloody hail, and the death of large portions of humanity? these are all the Lord's judgements right? when has the Lord ever pronounced judgement and it only been symbolic ie not ever occurred? did Egypt then not suffer the 10 plagues? was Israel not destroyed time and time again?


Symbolism doesn't mean that there isn't a matching reality, it just means that we won't see 'bowls of altar ashes' tumbling through the skies.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/13 15:12Profile









 Re: Make it simple

Quote:
if the 144000 are from the tribe of Israel then why does the word then go on to speak of all the other nations and tongues being part of the great multitude which noone could number?

Hi Ironman,

This might be the answer to your question....
Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem [b]Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven[/b],

Do your remember that Moses was married to an Ethopian woman? Might this be another part of the whole picture?

 2006/2/13 21:08





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