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 Re:

Ya know, at the same time we go page to page, I'm still wondering what jcheinrichs is doing through all of this.

I've gone through as many thoughts on that as the other thoughts brought out on this thread thus far. Ha.

He's either sitting back laughing, forgot he posted here, afraid to come back or wish he could have added the usual verbage to the title of this thread, but didn't dare.


I guess I'm the only one who's curious where jcheinrichs is ... Ho. :-?

 2006/2/1 17:45
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So what is your take on 2Th 2:2-3

Although these awaited fulfillment in Paul's day there is a measure in which they have all seen some fulfillment today.

e.g. as a matter of interpretation, the translators of the KJV believed the 'man of sin' was the Roman Catholic Church and the 'epistle dedicatory' enshrines this belief;...the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that [u]man of sin[/u], as will not be healed...I am not saying that I agree with them but I can't say that they were wrong either; I just don't know.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 5:10Profile









 Re:

Hia Ron, appreciate your reply.

I guess if we keep reading further into 2 thess 2, and do the cross-referencing, we see that this person is the antiChrist.

But as you said, we see that from not 'that' many years ago and backward, even our Commentators in e-sword, have this as the pope or Rome.

I don't believe the antiChrist is the pope.
But one may be the false prophet, as some call it/him.

Thanks again for taking the time with this.


Back to you jcheinrichs . :smart:

 2006/2/2 13:20
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
I was just wanting to point out that every generation has looked at the circumstances of their day and said 'this is it'. I vividly recall the Israeli blue and white flag flying over Jerusalem and saying to a gathering of young people "I do not expect to see my 30th birthday"; I was 25 at the time... I am now chasing 64!



64? i thought you were older than that for some reason :-P i guess we do sometimes get lost in it all. then we lean to our own understanding as opposed to truly seeking the Lord for clarity on what's going on in relation to the end times etc. i say we seek the Lord and His will. i was watching a show on the history channel (i'm a buff) on the antichrist and i was quite surprised at who was listed among the potentials, henry kissinger? so evidently there's a lot of focus on this but little clarity as most conclusions are from men's wisdom.

thanks bro


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/2 14:15Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
I don't believe the antiChrist is the pope.

I quoted the Epistle Dedicatory' without explanation. Many of the reformers (and others since) have regarded the 'Papacy as anti-christ'. It was not the 'man' (the pope) but the institution (papacy) which is foundational to the Roman Catholic Church.

Others have seen Islam as antichrist:“and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.”
(1John 4:3, YNG)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 5:04Profile









 Re:

Yes that's true Ron. Just a look into our e-sword commentaries have this belief because of the persecution of Protestants ... understandable.

But that there is one coming, who will be a "he", is in The Word and earliest of the early church fathers.
That man of perdition is yet to make his grand debute.

The sooner that all comes about, the sooner we'll be able to count on Christ's Return.

Our Blessed Hope. Amen, that no one can rob us of.

 2006/2/4 1:46
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But that there is one coming, who will be a "he", is in The Word and earliest of the early church fathers.


The 'earliest of the early church fathers' were writing well before the [url=http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/papacy.htm]Development of the Papacy.[/url]The doctrine of the supremacy of the pope finally reached its height in the late 13th century, when Pope Boniface VIII claimed full religious and secular authority over every human being.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/4 4:55Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron
you said

Quote:
We are working with symbolic numbers here. The whole people of the Old Covenant were 12 clans. The shewbread signified that the whole nation was given to God but in their individual significance. The number 12 seems to links with rule and government and 12 seems to take on the nature of 'the whole'. Consequently the number is always 12; the whole covenant people of God. The 12 clans originally included Levi but Levi was set apart for the service of God and then would have left 11, but the number is made up to 12 again because the clan of Joseph is sub-divided into Ephraim and Manasseh.



if the number is symbolic, then shouldn't the mentioned tribe also be symbolic? it seems a little weird to me to have 12000 as being symbolic and yet the mentioned tribe being real :-? also it seems to me that whatever is symbolic is said to be so and the explanation for what it is is given like the 7 stars and candlesticks.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/12 19:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
if the number is symbolic, then shouldn't the mentioned tribe also be symbolic? it seems a little weird to me to have 12000 as being symbolic and yet the mentioned tribe being real also it seems to me that whatever is symbolic is said to be so and the explanation for what it is is given like the 7 stars and candlesticks.

Nowhere does it say that the Lamb is symbolic, but we all believe it is. The book begins by saying it is in symbols. The difference is that sometimes the symbols are interpreted and sometime not. Take a look at Rev 13 and ask the question 'do I think this is literal?'


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/13 5:33Profile









 Re:

I think the point is, HE didn't intend the symbology to remain unsolved by those who would live through that time.

He spoke in parables, He said, to hide wisdom from the proud, basically, but understanding was intended for the humble or his true Disciples that followed Him.

We believe the Lamb is symbolic, because as we read further, we see the Lamb for Who is He, by "what is written". By hermenuetics.

The same with Rev. 13 or The Revelation as a whole actually. That when pieced together with Dan, and other O.T. Prophets, Matt, Mark, Luke, Thess., Peter ... give us the theme of a world power and one who will one day rule over it and so forth. He said, "Behold, I have told you 'all' things."
Paul said, "I would not have you to be ignorant" and also both he and Peter make statement along those lines, that we have been adequately educated on what is to come.

The Revelation was not written to remain a mystery until the Lord Returns to explain it to us, it was written to get us through it by 'understanding the times'.
Something Jesus always stressed, that He wanted us to know, be conscious of, to watch and to be wise during.

There can be great confidence that He will apokalupto the whole of it to us, as we go along. And that is what He's promised and even now is doing.

We've got one foot into this Book already, so the "unveiling" has begun, to those who's eyes are anxious and believing to see, without pre-held preferences of belief. The more child like the faith and anticipation of "His" plans (not ours) the more apokalupto.

If we're willing to go through it, He'll definitely be faithful to show us the steps ahead of us ... before they come. That's a promise of His.

He'll never leave us in the dark. Never ever.

 2006/2/13 7:36





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