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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob

Quote:
Ironman, if the Jews had an intimate knowledge of the Father, they would love the Son. So the Church has been incomplete without Israel for 2,000 years? Nonsense.



they know the Father in the sense that He has dealt with them in a way much different from us and i think we could benefit from that. We are dealt with through God the Son, God dealt with them directly. well if we use the analogy of the olive tree and some of the natural branches have been cut off for the wild ones to be grafted in and then the natural ones will be grafted back, it seems to me that the tree is not yet full.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/20 11:19Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If you do a search on that word 'mystery', you'll see other places where it is used in the context of them and us together as one of God's ultimate plans, as becoming one whole. It's really a beautiful study of God's Faithfulness to His Own Words and Promises and that He completes what He started with mankind.


The first question here is "what kind of 'entity' is the new man?" Is the 'new man' of Eph 2:15 a man of two halves? Is it a 'weld' with a 'Gentile' piece added on to the 'Jewish' piece? Or is it an alloy in which the two become one?

The second question is "what is 'the root' of which natural Israel were part, were not a part, and may be a part if they 'believe'?" If natural Israel are the 'natural branches' can they also be the 'root'? If they are not the root, what is the root?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/20 11:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Rather than go over all this again, I suggest you read the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7893&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]godhead[/url] thread. That will start the story from the beginning.



Thanx for trying to explain the trinity, It is one area the is so mysterious for me to grasp.

I will always be looking into that subjuct untill
I am Face to face with Him who loved me.
1Corinth. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 2006/2/20 15:39Profile









 Re:

Hia Ron,

First question ... No, not a weld, not "pieces added", but God's intent from the git-go. To have "a" people. All of which are called the children of Abraham. Why it's called a Mystery.

Second question ... The "root" is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

 2006/2/20 15:44
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
First question ... No, not a weld, not "pieces added", but God's intent from the git-go. To have "a" people. All of which are called the children of Abraham. Why it's called a Mystery.

A biblical mystery is not mysterious just 'hidden' until the right time. If two are made one, what were the 'two' and what is the 'one' that they become in Christ?


Quote:
Second question ... The "root" is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".


I don't think this fits the bill. I'm not disputing the fact that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, only whether or not we have a 'Lamb' in view here. The metaphor is a 'vine tree' and my question is what is the 'root' of that vine. Christ IS the true vine, but the 'vine' includes both root and branch, so we are back to the question "what is the root?"

Let me answer my own questions, as I see it at present. The 'new man' is 'new' and had not existed prior to the cross (at the earliest). According to Ephesians at the time of the cross they were still 'two' and were 'made one body by the cross'. That is, the death of Christ made two 'one'. The next question is do they continue to exist as 'two' or are they now only 'one'?

The KJV of “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens [u]with[/u] the saints, and of the household of God;” (Eph 2:19 KJVS) This makes it sound as if the Gentiles have been 'added' to the saints but Darby's pedantic translation makes an important point “So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens [u]of[/u] the saints, and of the household of God,” (Eph 2:19 DRBY) I'll try to pick my way carefully through this... the Gentiles are not 'added TO the saints' but become part OF the saints which include believing Jews. The 'saints' are a group made up of Gentiles and Jews. The 'household of God' has the same all inclusive sense. The Gentile is not 'added' to the household of faith but becomes part of the 'household of faith' which includes believing Jews.

As regards the 'root' I think it has to be 'Abrahamic Faith', ie the kind of faith that Abraham displayed in Gen 15:6. This would be consistent then with the whole theme of Romans. (I think it is important to remember that Romans 9-11 cannot be detached from the main argument of Romans that 'there is no difference' (Rom 2:11, 3:22, 10:12). In Romans 4:12 Paul states that the 'Jews' had to have [u]both[/u] circumcision and 'Abrahamic Faith', whereas the non-Jew is only required to have 'Abrahamic Faith'. Subsequently, Abraham is the 'father of all the believers'.

This is why I say I think that Abraham (or more precisely 'Abraham's Faith) is the root. Consequently, those without that faith are 'cut out' of the Vine (even once believing Gentiles) and all with that faith are grafted in.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/21 9:57Profile





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