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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I am sorry, I appologise. I guess was thinking on the two things at once when I put the has in the God has a Spirit...and God has flesh....

So in correction:
God is a Spirit whom we call "the Holy Spirit"

God has flesh in whom we call "Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ"

Quote:
To say, as you do, that God is 'neither a spirit nor flesh' is confusing. I would need you either to omit the indefinite article or supply it both times. If you mean mean 'God is not a spirit, and God is not a body' I would have to say that I disagree with you. God is Spirit. 'Flesh or Spirit' is a continuing contrast of John's record. This passage is simply repeating this contrast; God is not physically located ie in flesh, but is Spirit and hence must be worshipped in spirit and truth.



To put it better I will say that God the Father Himself is not a spirit as the Holy spirit is nor in the flesh as His son still is. He is totaly other than which is the very definition of the word Holy.
Jesus is sitting at the Fathers right Hand, or standing it the case of Stephen.
The Holy Spirit is omnipreasent like the wind. He can also come upon us or be pourd out of as in Joel 2:28

 2006/2/18 9:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Logic,
I don't think your explanations are helping me. ;-)

Quote:
So in correction:?God is a Spirit whom we call "the Holy Spirit"??God has flesh in whom we call "Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ"

The God who is Spirit has revealed Himself to be personally and individually identified as 'The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit'. The one we call 'the Holy Spirit' is not who John 4 is referring to. The God who is Spirit is Father, Word and Spirit. The God who is Spirit is not called 'the Holy Spirit', the God who is Spirit is Father, Word AND Holy Spirit.

I can't get a grip on the next sentence. What does 'God has flesh in whom we call' mean? The God who is Spirit, does not have 'flesh'. But 'God the Word' who is Spirit became Flesh; He did not have it, but became it. He did not cease to be spirit in becoming flesh. This is the wonder of the incarnation.


Quote:
To put it better I will say that God the Father Himself is not a spirit as the Holy spirit is nor in the flesh as His son still is. He is totaly other than which is the very definition of the word Holy.

God the Father is Spirit in [u]exactly[/u] the way that the Spirit is spirit, otherwise there is difference of 'substance' within the godhead and trinity is no longer trinity.


Quote:
Jesus is sitting at the Fathers right Hand, or standing it the case of Stephen.
The Holy Spirit is omnipreasent like the wind. He can also come upon us or be pourd out of as in Joel 2:28

Your views of the godhead seem very static. How, according to the above do you understand the following quotation? “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23 KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/18 19:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
The God who is Spirit has revealed Himself to be personally and individually identified as 'The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit'. The one we call 'the Holy Spirit' is not who John 4 is referring to. The God who is Spirit is Father, Word and Spirit. The God who is Spirit is not called 'the Holy Spirit', the God who is Spirit is Father, Word AND Holy Spirit.



I know that John 4 isnt refering to the Hoy Spirit. Sounds tike you are sayng 1 is 3 when in reality God is 3 is 1.

I am sorry, but the only way my peanut brain can handle the trinity is three Personalities in unity. Or one cubed as in 1 to the 3rd power and 1 X 3 = 1. The Godhead consists of Father, Son Holy Spirit.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
shama` Yisra'el Y@hovah 'elohiym 'echad Y@hovah
Listen, O Israel Jehova our Gods' is unified togeter as Jehova.
'elohiym = the Gods
'echad = unity or unified

Quote:
I can't get a grip on the next sentence. What does 'God has flesh in whom we call' mean? The God who is Spirit, does not have 'flesh'. But 'God the Word' who is Spirit became Flesh; He did not have it, but became it. He did not cease to be spirit in becoming flesh. This is the wonder of the incarnation.



God has flesh of whom we call the Word. Jesus is the Word.

In what form did the come as when He walked in the cool of the day with Adam, or the Word of the Lord come to prophets as? Did He only put flesh on when He came down to Earth? I always figured Jesus, or the Word, always had Glorified flesh until He came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3).

Quote:
God the Father is Spirit in exactly the way that the Spirit is spirit, otherwise there is difference of 'substance' within the godhead and trinity is no longer trinity.



What is "Spirit" anyway? I always figured spirit in the geeral sence means Attitude.

Isn't there a difference of substance? Jesus is in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is [b]a[/b] Spirit, and God the Father is neither.
This is how I actualy figure God. If I am in ereore, PLEASE correct me. I will keep reading what you wrote to get a better grip on it an I hope you will reiterate.

 2006/2/18 20:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

hi logic

Quote:
Sounds tike you are sayng 1 is 3 when in reality God is 3 is 1.


Not at all. I am NOT saying either. 3 is never 1 and 1 is never 3. The trinity is 3 IN 1. To say 3 is 1 would transgress the trinitarian warning of "not confounding the persons nor dividing the substance". The godhead is not "1 cubed".


Quote:
In what form did the come as when He walked in the cool of the day with Adam, or the Word of the Lord come to prophets as? Did He only put flesh on when He came down to Earth? I always figured Jesus, or the Word, always had Glorified flesh until He came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3).


You said in an earlier post that you liked to choose your words carefully but you are using words in a dangerously woolly way here. If you avoid the poetic 'putting on flesh' and use the biblical phrases of 'the word became flesh and dwelt among us' you would see that the incarnation took place in Mary's womb and never previously. Your 'figurining that he always had Glorified flesh' is a speculation which is not supported by the scripture and if fact denied by the incarnation accounts. Angels take on human appearance fairly frequently in the OT but these are not incarnations. The Word appeared as the Angel of the LORD in the OT but never as an incarnation.


Quote:
What is "Spirit" anyway? I always figured spirit in the geeral sence means Attitude.

This is another case of your wrong 'figuring'. The use of the word 'spirit' as meaning 'attitude' has no biblical precedent as far as I am aware. It is always used as a concrete noun and never as an abstract mood.


Quote:
Isn't there a difference of substance? Jesus is in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is a Spirit, and God the Father is neither.
This is how I actualy figure God.

It is a vital aspect of Trinitarian doctrine that the persons of the Godhead are 'of the same substance'. This is not substance used in a chemical sense but is our struggle to 'define' what is quite beyond us. However, what the Father is, the Word is. That is the purpose of John 1:1 . Whatever the Father and the Word is, so is the Spirit. These are the opening statements of the Nicene CreedI believe in one God, the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;
begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,
by Whom all things were made:


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/19 12:17Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Diane
i think it refers to those who are jewish by birth (wherever they may be)and those who are converts. now as far as why the genealogical records got lost if this was important to God to fulfil His plan, all can say is God knows. but the bottom line is the Jews still have a work to do for God on this side such as the rebuilding of the temple where the dome of the rock is. no gentile can do that.

yes i agree that it does get complicated when we define who the Jews are but the Lord knows them even though we may not know them all.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/19 13:20Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas

Quote:
I hate to say this, but, narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few there be who find it. A person's ethnicity, nationality, or previous religion is not going to help them.... that's the WHOLE point. We ALL lay EVERYTHING down. We come as individual people to the Lord, one by one by one.



why should you hate to say that since it's true sis? we are all indeed God's people but there is still a distinction between Jew and gentile because it serves a purpose of God on this side. The Jews have always been God's chosen and that won't change. and we need them because they have an intimate knowledge of God the Father and they need us because we know God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So we are incomplete without them and they without us.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/19 13:25Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:


hi logic
Quote:
Sounds tike you are sayng 1 is 3 when in reality God is 3 is 1.


Not at all. I am NOT saying either. 3 is never 1 and 1 is never 3. The trinity is 3 IN 1. To say 3 is 1 would transgress the trinitarian warning of "not confounding the persons nor dividing the substance". The godhead is not "1 cubed".



If it is 3 in 1 the Deuteronomy 6:4 would say Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God in one LORD: and not Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Quote:
What is "Spirit" anyway? I always figured spirit in the geeral sence means Attitude.

Quote:

This is another case of your wrong 'figuring'. The use of the word 'spirit' as meaning 'attitude' has no biblical precedent as far as I am aware. It is always used as a concrete noun and never as an abstract mood.[



Spirit can mean "attitude"
other than meaning spirit or breath and wind, it can also mean 1.the rational, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, and decides
2.the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one 3. mind 4. mental disposition 5. bent


Quote:
Isn't there a difference of substance? Jesus is in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is a Spirit, and God the Father is neither.
This is how I actualy figure God.

Quote:
It is a vital aspect of Trinitarian doctrine that the persons of the Godhead are 'of the same substance'. This is not substance used in a chemical sense but is our struggle to 'define' what is quite beyond us. However, what the Father is, the Word is. That is the purpose of John 1:1 . Whatever the Father and the Word is, so is the Spirit. These are the opening statements of the Nicene Creed



If they are of the same substance how or why would the Son need to do what He does in this verse:
1Corinth. 15:24 "Then comes the end, when [b]he will give up the kingdom to God, even the Father[/b]; when he will have put an end to all rule and to all authority and power.
wouldn't this be useless if they are of the same substance
Or
Ephisians 1:17 That [b]the God of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b], the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
They wouldn't have a hierarchy of athority as in this verse.

 2006/2/19 21:19Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
sis Dorcas

Quote:
I hate to say this, but, narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few there be who find it. A person's ethnicity, nationality, or previous religion is not going to help them.... that's the WHOLE point. We ALL lay EVERYTHING down. We come as individual people to the Lord, one by one by one.



why should you hate to say that since it's true sis? we are all indeed God's people but there is still a distinction between Jew and gentile because it serves a purpose of God on this side. The Jews have always been God's chosen and that won't change. and we need them because they have an intimate knowledge of God the Father and they need us because we know God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So we are incomplete without them and they without us.



Ironman, if the Jews had an intimate knowledge of the Father, they would love the Son. So the Church has been incomplete without Israel for 2,000 years? Nonsense.

 2006/2/20 2:54Profile









 Re:

I'd tread lightly here jimbob, because if you do a really good search on one of the "mysteries" that Paul is speaking of, it is of the joining of God's first Chosen people with the gentile believers.

They did come first, and us grafted in branches should never boast against the natural branches.

Paul loved to speak of this "Mystery" and it's a Blessed thing in God's Eyes and economy.

Romans 11 is just one chpt. where he gets into this "Mystery" and IRONMAN has made a Scriptural statement there ... in God's Eyes and in His Plan, we are incomplete without them and they without us ... because in the end, we make up the whole of this "mystery".

If you do a search on that word 'mystery', you'll see other places where it is used in the context of them and us together as one of God's ultimate plans, as becoming one whole. It's really a beautiful study of God's Faithfulness to His Own Words and Promises and that He completes what He started with mankind.


God Bless.

 2006/2/20 3:14
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Logic

Quote:
Spirit can mean "attitude"
other than meaning spirit or breath and wind, it can also mean 1.the rational, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, and decides
2.the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one 3. mind 4. mental disposition 5. bent

Please document this assertion scripturally.


Quote:
They wouldn't have a hierarchy of athority as in this verse.

Rather than go over all this again, I suggest you read the [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7893&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]godhead[/url] thread. That will start the story from the beginning.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/20 4:12Profile





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