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Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
A little child sits at the Feet of their Father, not having their own "ideas on things" and just listens as they read together.



Brother, I believe if you read everything previous it would be obvious that what was intended is this very thing.

A little child crys out to his Father to explain things to him. And as believers we as little children cry out to the Lord to explain these things to us.

They are not simple things. But with the Lord's unveiling we can see them. It does not require great intellect. It requires spiritual understanding.

Whether the context of Peter's words is eschatology or not, it is in fact the scriptures. And the beginning of this discussion was on the Book of Revelation which is eschatology in its finest.


And the point which was being made was that we must approach the Book of revelation in a simplistic way. But it is not a simple book and it cannot be understand by taking a simplistic "wooden literalism".

It is a book of signs with significance which reaches back to Genesis and the Prophets and requires to be accurate at least some understanding of Danial and many other books including Leviticus.


The understanding of the book of Revelation requires first the Spirit, and along with the Spirit some diligent searching and study to acquire an understanding of the things signified.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/28 16:20Profile









 Re:

Imagine that, this person jcheinrichs, posts one post on here and we're on page 2 already. :-?

Graftedbranch, You and I half agree with each other and that's good in my sight.


Your one post leaned more toward the work of the Spirit and this last sentence a combo .. but I still have to ask ... IF, just IF, for any reason under the sun that we can come up with, a person is "unable" to, as you say ... """diligently search and study to acquire an understanding of the things signified."""" .....

... then How would John 16:13 apply to them ? ...
Say, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?

Would their lack of having the Whole Book, which is needed to search and study, cause them to not be able to "count (decipher/compute) the number of the beast", and would thus be 'deceived' by him or take the 'mark', because they for whatever reason did not have the whole Bible in front of them or haven't been saved long enough to 'study', before the real hard parts of the end times begin ?

[b]Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into [u]ALL[/u] truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and [u]he will show you things to come[/u].[/b]


I am totally with you on, 'Study' to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Eschatology has been my utmost favorite study for 30 years. I "bug folks" with it, Not Intentionally ... and intensive Study was part of how I draw my conclusions .... a large part .... but it was the Holy Spirit that put the zeal into me to keep on a certain trail or path with it, to come to any conclusions on Eschatology.


I just don't want anyone else out there to feel, that because they are young, mentally disabled, in a third world country, or what have you ,,, that the Lord Himself, through His Holy Spirit, will not guide them into [u]ALL truth[/u] and EVEN [u]show them things to come[/u] ... depending on or based on, their consecration/devotion to Him and 'His' Truth, only.


jcheinrichs, needs to come back and explain his post ... I do agree that he/she needs to do that, but at the same time ... as this has progressed to where it is ... I think our minds need to be globally inclusive, and considerate of differing mental capacities, when we talk about "study" and The Revelation or revelations of any of God's truths.

There is some alluding to/in Daniel, that what was "sealed" Will Be opened for the elect's understanding when the times come.
I also bank on that and have experienced that, as things are being unveiled, with the who's who etc. of the last times.

And, in the meantime, till it is no longer possible to, I study and then after my Bible is removed from my hands, I'll continue to trust John 16:13.


Lord Bless and I really do appreciate you brother or sister.

Love, Annie

 2006/1/28 17:43
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Say, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?



In the end we have to come back to the soverignity of God. There was a period in history for 1000 years or so when the scriptures were denied to the common man. We refer to this period as "the dark ages" and dark it was.

But at a point in time God brought in the Light through primarily one man, Martin Luther who stood against the traditions of Rome and brought in the Light of Salvation by Grace through faith and brought the Light of the Scriptures to the common man.

My son is a master of the hypothetical. Whatever you tell him, he will quickly come up with some hypothetical situation where what is said would not apply.

But God is soverign and also just and will not hold us accountable to light which we don't have.

But we have the Light. We have the full revelation of the Truth in the scriptures and we live in an age when they are readily availble to us and therefore we have more responsibility. To whom much is given, much is required.

God has a goal and an economy which is to produce the Body of Christ. And He has given us the Spirit and the Word as our means.

We can spend our days in speculating on what if and what about them or those people who haven't heard or don't have a bible or are under communist rule or in prison. But we have and we are responsible to God for what we have and what is given.

God is soverign and God has His elect. And He brings the gospel to them and they believe into Him and He gives Light and Life and His Word. And if we stand and say, what about, what about, He may just pass us by and go to someone else.

I might add that the church in China is stong and flurishing and they welcome and relish any portion of the Bible or ministry they can get their hands on.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/28 18:15Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Edited to add, you said """Surely the Lord gives His revelation according to our capacity. And an 8 year old will not be recieving revelation on many things."""



You must know some 8 year olds I don't. But few I have known can sit and discuss the "deep things of God". Most can't sit and discuss anything for more than 2 or three minutes.

What is this? God is after consecration, but consecration based in revelation. Cain had consecration but Abel had revelation.

Growth in Life and depth of understanding comes through many years of dealings with God and Light in the scriptures. We can be born of God in an instant but to be matured in Life requres day by day of contacting the Lord, calling on Him, feeding on Him in His word and the experiences of the Cross in our day to day living.

We can concecrate ourselves but on what basis? Unless we have the revelation of the truth, unless we see our union with Christ in His death and resurrection. Unless we have the knowlege that "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit' and know that He is in us and we are in Him. What is our concecration? A commitment to do what we think is right? Unless we are renewed in our concepts we will searve God not according to His will but according to our natural concepts of right and wrong.

Graftedbranch


 2006/1/28 18:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Graftedbranc wrote:
Quote:
Say, if they are in China, and the most that has been smuggled to them, is Parts of this book or that (if they are fortunate) ?



I might add that the church in China is stong and flurishing and they welcome and relish any portion of the Bible or ministry they can get their hands on.

Graftedbranch





May it be so for us also, 'before' persecution comes.



And my "hypothetical" is more prevalent than you may be considering at the moment GB.


God richly Bless you.
Annie

 2006/1/28 18:53
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
And my "hypothetical" is more prevalent than you may be considering at the moment GB.
:)



I am just having a difficult time getting hold of the rational behind this. It seems as if the argument is that because everyone does not have a Bible, then the bible is not necessary.

We might as well say that because everyone on the planet has not heard the gospel, then the gospel must not be necessary so why waste our time in missionary activity and preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth.

The Gospel is necessary for salvation and the Bible is necessary for growth in Life. And to those who are not so privalidged to have access to Bible's are at a disadvantage, but God is still faithfull and gives them grace and they may enjoy more of the Lord than those who have shelf full of Bibles. But this does not invalidate the need for the Bible but rather it only shows God is faithful and meets us according to our need. But to say because of this that the Bible is not so necessary is to temp the Lord and despise His provision.

Watchman Nee spent the last 20 years of his life in a Chinese Prison and was not allowed a Bible and not even allowed to pray outwardly. But the Word of Christ dwelt in him richly and He enjoyed the Lord Jesus as grace and his joy for 20 years. And all He had was the scripture in his memory to use as fuel for prayer and communion with Christ.

Because some are imprisoned and cannot have contact with other members of the body of Christ shall we also conclude we don't need the body? We don't need to meet with the Church? We have no need for the fellowship of the Saints? This too would be preposterous.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 11:02Profile









 Re:

Gb. You've gone too far now with your judgments.
You have totally twisted my words and it's becoming tiring and disturbing ... have you nothing better to do with your God Given Time ?

Anyone who knows me, knows I push "STUDY" more than anything and had a thread here, now gone with the older ones, called "Teach a man to fish and he'll eat forever" or "A hunger for the Word".

Your assertions are getting extremely ridiculous now and had nothing to do with what I had said.
You seem to be just in the mood to quarrel with someone. To just circle the forum, looking for who to correct.

No matter what is said at this point, you take it to extremes and accusations of things that have never entered my mind.

You don't know me, others here do, as GrannieAnnie, and my hunger and devotion to His Word is all I've lived for or has kept me 'alive' for 30 yr.s.


You seem to like debate just for the sake of debate ... and I see that as not healthy. And your 2 cents bundles are piling up in ways they shouldn't.

How easy to sit behind a computer and preach to us instead of get out there and work for Him, yet not talk about it, or blow trumpets about our works.


Have a fun day GB. I'm tired now.
Annie

 2006/1/29 12:50
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
You have totally twisted my words and it's becoming tiring and disturbing ... have you nothing better to do with your God Given Time ?



I appologize Annie.

I got this thread confused with another one "Can the teachings of Jesus be compared to the writings of Paul"

I was not responding to anything you said but to JFEdgar's posts on the other thread. He was contending that the Bible was not necessary. I got confused and thought your comments were with regard to the other thread and I was refering back to what I thought was the original statements which were by JFedgar.

I thought our conversation had come out of that one. It is my mistake. Sorry if I misunderstood you. YOu will notice I said, "It seems as if the argument is that because everyone does not have a Bible, then the bible is not necessary."

The argument I was refering to was the one originally posted in the other thread.



Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 14:11Profile









 Re:

No problem GB.

I should come over to that thread and post against that belief also then :-) .

Just that Title alone scared me Bro, so I've stayed off of it completely so far.

I'm glad it was just a mistaken identity of postings, and that I can surely understand and empathise with.


Peace brother.
Love.
Annie

 2006/1/29 17:52
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into All truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

If we put this passage into its original context“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into [u]all truth[/u]: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” (John 16:12-16, KJVS)It becomes apparent that this word was spoken expressly to the apostles and is part of their unique commission and enabling. It is part of a package of promises with similar purpose... “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you [u]all things[/u], and bring [u]all things[/u] to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:26; 15:15, KJVS) John 14-16 are the same discourse and the themes carry through the three chapters. "guiding, teaching, and reminding" of all things are part of Christ's unique authorization of the Apostles.

The fulfillment of this promise begins in “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:21-23, KJVS) Luke does not record the exact words of John but describes the same resurrection meeting “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” (Luke 24:45, KJVS)This unique "breathing upon them" and the words "receive the Holy Spirit" (receive now; aorist imperative) are not to be confused with the Spirit's coming 'into' all the believers at Pentecost.

The promise 'he shall teach you all things' has been a precious promise to many an individual but that should not hide from us the fact that these words had a unique audience and a unique application. God has certainly promised to guide us and to speak to us but his guidance and his speaking do not have the special authority of the acts and words of the Apostles; God's words to 'me' must never be given the status of 'inspiration' that we accord to the scriptures and our doctrines must be based upon the scripture not our personal revelations.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/1/30 7:33Profile





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