| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | |
7 candlesticks-7 churches
7 stars-angels of 7 churches
churches exhorted
seven sealed book
opening of seals
Rev 6:12/Matthew 24-earthquake,moon as blood,sun black,fig tree casts untimely figs ect...
4 angels 4 corners of earth gather elect
we appear before throne/144,000 sealed
prayers of saints offered
seven trumpets begin
2 witnesses
2 witnesses beheaded and caught away to heaven
seventh trumpet-I believe our bodies are changed in the twinkling of an eye
sunclothed woman-Isreal
Isreal flees to wilderness
false prophet
144,000 caught up with us-(alot of these events will all be taking place at same time between when were caught up and 144,000 are caught up)
mark 666
some saints left behind unprepared
vials
Babylon kills saints
Babylon falls
beast and prophet cast in lake of fire
satan cast in bottomless pit till 1,000 years
John sees souls beheaded and they reign with Christ 1,000 years
Battle of Gog and Magog-devoured by God
Devil cast in lake of fire w/ beast and false prophet
white throne judgement
any objections welcome...let me know what you think!
|
|  2005/12/26 20:53 | | PaulBenson
Member
Joined: 2004/10/14
Posts: 20
Kalispell Montana USA
| | Re: | | I too agree that the teaching of a pre-trib rapture is not only totally false but very damaging to the focus and doctrinal well-being of the body of Christ.
I have written a booklet (Escape or Passover: What does the Bible really teach about the Rapture?) that examines nearly 100 passages of Scripture concerning the return of Christ and the catching away of the Church. This honest look at the 'end-time' Scriptures shows the pre-trib rapture teaching is nothing but a man-made myth; we will be caught up to meet the Lord at His Return!
This booklet is FREE for the asking. If anyone is interested send a request to:
True Witness Press
P. O. Box 5519
Kalispell, MT. 59903
We also carry a book titled 'Is the Bible you read: The True Sayings of God?'. This 160 Page book examines 491 of the thousands of corrupting changes to the 'modern' Bible versions - proving they are NOT to be trusted as the true Word of God! This book is also Free for the asking.
Jesus is KING!
_________________
Paul Benson
|
| | 2005/12/26 21:18 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Rebecca5 wrote:
I had to make a correction here:
It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stever's response:
The rapture is unique, in that it is presented and explained to us by Paul in detail. Paul received direct, personal revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ. Paul mentions the rapture and what it entails in 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12.
At the rapture Christ comes to get his saints. At the second coming, at the end of the Tribulation, Christ comes with His saints. What you referred to in Matthew refers to the Second Coming, when Christ comes with His saints.
It seems like you never responded to this this post, Rebecca5.
God bless,
Stever
P.S.
Compare this description (BELOW) of the glorious second coming, when Christ COMES WITH HIS SAINTS to the rapture, when he COMES TO GET HIS SAINTS.:
Zechariah 14:4-44
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
|
| | 2005/12/26 22:31 | | GaryE
Member
Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania
| | Re: | |
Dear Cindy,
Yes, I believe that there will be many people saved during the tribulation. I do not believe the Holy Spirit will be taken away during the pre-trib rapture if there is in fact a pre-trib rapture.
Since the tribulation period and the book of Revelation is a big part of what people are writing in this thread, please consider these words from Daniel that parallel the book of Revelation. They speak of the seven year period of the tribulation. Even though the seventy weeks of years is a fairly modern teaching, I'm under the impression that most people today believe that the 70th week of years is the last seven years of the tribulation period.
.................................................
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
.................................................
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
.................................................
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits
.................................................
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
_________________
Gary Eckenroth
|
| | 2005/12/27 0:31 | Profile |
| | Re: | | PaulBenson wrote:
"I too agree that the teaching of a pre-trib rapture is not only totally false but very damaging to the focus and doctrinal well-being of the body of Christ."
Stever's response:
That argument only makes sense to the Christian who is trying to work his way to heaven by "works". The Spirit filled Christian is always doing the the Fathers business. What specifically is that business? Witnessing to the Lost. The Christian Beliver is instructed to look up, because his redemption draweth nigh- he is not instructed to be on the lookout for the Antichrist.
The Christian believer is in a state of rest, God's rest.
Why is that?? Because he/she is empowered by the Holy Ghost, exactly like the Apostles were at Pentecost and after that. Exactly like Paul was, exactly like the Church body at Corinth was, as well as at Thesalonica and the others.
We (Christians) are not about works, or keeping track of our activities. Our works, our "righteousness" is nothing more than filthy rags to the Lord.
The belief or non-belief in the rapture has absolutely nothing to do with "damaging to the focus and doctrinal well-being of the body of Christ."
Acts 1:7-8 tells us:
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth
It makes no difference to me whether there is a rapture, or there is not a rapture, however the Bible teaches that there is a rapture and there is a second coming and that both events are separate, distinct events.
God bless,
Stever
|
| | 2005/12/27 0:47 | |
| | Re: Rapture??? | | I don't have much to say here except two things:
1) it is with great relief that I see pre-trib rapture challenged;
2) there have been saints dying - falling asleep in Christ or going to be with Him due to being killed for their faith in Him, for almost 2000 years EDIT and those who had died before Christ, whose faith causes them to be included EDIT end; these saints will all be with Him when He returns to catch up those remaining believers who have not already died.
This is a very simple concept. Too simple? |
| | 2005/12/27 7:48 | |
| | Re: | | Stever,
The verses that you gave concerning how you believe theirs a rapture I don't see as a "rapture", I see that as the second coming of Christ.
I know alot of christians may think it doesn't really matter but why was the book of Danial and Revelation than written.I think it is a big deal because ALOT of christians really are counting on this rapture to get them out of here.I know of many christians who don't even want to talk about how we might not be getting out of here so soon.
Tell me this,other than some prophecy teacher telling you their is going to be a rapture what do rapture believers base it on?
According to my Dake's bible they base it on the word "TWINKLE" in 1 Cor.15:52.There is a "Twinkle"(called the rapture),than there is a last trump.A TWINKLE,THAN A TRUMP,SO TWO TRUMPS.Sorry I don't see it. |
| | 2005/12/27 9:17 | | lastblast
Member
Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan
| | Re: | | Quote:
We are all "firstfruits of the resurrection". Christ was the first "Firstfruit", we will be "Firstfruits of the resurrection" at the rapture. Those that come to belief in Messiah during the Tribulation and are beheaded will become "Firstfruits of the Resurrection" at the Second Coming, before Christ rules and reigns with them and us for the 1,000 years.
Hi Stever,
In the above, you believe then that the "church" is upon the earth during the tribulation? In Him, Cindy
_________________
Cindy
|
| | 2005/12/27 9:19 | Profile | lastblast
Member
Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan
| | Re: | |
Quote:
Yes, I believe that there will be many people saved during the tribulation. I do not believe the Holy Spirit will be taken away during the pre-trib rapture if there is in fact a pre-trib rapture.
Gary, are these believers during the trib called "the church"?
Quote:
I'm under the impression that most people today believe that the 70th week of years is the last seven years of the tribulation period.
Yes, even the early church wrote of the last "week". Yet, in their writings, they do not see the church removed, the church is HERE on earth suffering persecution of the anti-christ. The new teaching is of the removal of "part" of Christ's body, while another part suffers God's Wrath. That is the teaching I do not understand, nor can I now that I understand God's plan of salvation for mankind (that though we do not know Him as our Father until we submit to His will through conversion, HE KNOWS WHO ARE HIS............and He draws those whom He gave to the Son WHEN He desires (Jn. 6:37-44). ALL HE gave to the Son shall be raised up on the LAST day.........Blessings in Him, Cindy
_________________
Cindy
|
| | 2005/12/27 9:26 | Profile | lastblast
Member
Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan
| | Re: | | Quote:
there have been saints dying - falling asleep in Christ or going to be with Him due to being killed for their faith in Him, for almost 2000 years EDIT and those who had died before Christ, whose faith causes them to be included EDIT end; these saints will all be with Him when He returns to catch up those remaining believers who have not already died.
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him (I Thess. 4:13-14).
This is when the Lord comes WITH His saints to collect those who are His saints (those left all around who are surviving)..........when He comes in Glory, when every eye shall see Him. This is what the entire early church believed and taught until the 1800's when the pre-trib rapture started being taught. Many of us just took it for truth, being in churches that taught it as such, UNTIL we studied for ourselves and could not reconcile it with what scripture teaches. At least that was my road to changing my viewpoint on this matter. Blessings in Him, Cindy
_________________
Cindy
|
| | 2005/12/27 9:34 | Profile |
|
