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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination and Free Will

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: foreknowledge then predestination

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the [b]foreknowledge[/b] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Lets say that you know your wife so well that you know what she will do after a certain event, say supper, you know that she always calls her mother right after she gets done eating; so you make plans around her phone call. It is sorta like that with God. He knows us so well that He knows exactly what we will do from the foundation of the world. so he calls according to His knowledge of who He knows will Believe on His Son.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did [b]foreknow[/b], he also did [b]predestinate[/b] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He predestins us according to His foreknowlage as said above.

 2006/2/14 19:06Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Bro Logic
the word foreknew is also rendered fore-ordained in the greek. the idea of election by grace actually speaks to the Lord's sovereingty in electing or choosing those that He would choose by Himself. anything other than the election of grace is an attempt at salvation by works. the Lord hated Esau from before he was even born (read Romans chapt 9) but loved Jacob and this was so that the Lord's election would stand making sure that there would be no perception of the Lord's favour on Jacob because of his works and to show that it was because of God's own grace.

the thing is our perception of free will is such that we think we can operate independant of the Lord's will which is not true. that idea is based more on Anglo-American philosophies on freedom that what the Lord says. our will doesn't override the Lord's neither does anything happen outside of His will.

the bottom line though is this, we'll not be able to understand this mystery on this side of heaven as C.S. Spurgeon said in a post put by bro Jaysaved a couple of pages back. also see jaysaved's post from eaton's bible dictionary on predestination a couple of posts down. however the thing is we who are saved are God's vessels of mercy and we should conduct ourselves as such and seek after the Lord to reach out to His other vessels of mercy.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/14 20:17Profile









 Re: prdestination

I believe, from my own study, that all are predestined for heaven. But, it's our choice to either go to heaven, or go to a devils hell. Most will choose hell, because they will never part with their sin. Many are decieved. Many will never hear a clear presentation of the gospel. But the reason anyone goes to hell, is because their a sinner, and they have transgressed Gods law. Not because they rejected Jesus. The bible speaks of a "book of life", and, a "Lambs book of Life". All are written into the book of life when they are concieved. But only those who are "born again" are written into the Lambs book of life. If a person dies in his/her sins they are blotted out of the "book of life". Does this make since? If not I can explaine. :-(

 2006/2/14 22:45
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Our Choiceis His foreknowledge

Quote:
the Lord hated Esau from before he was even born (read Romans chapt 9) but loved Jacob and this was so that the Lord's election would stand making sure that there would be no perception of the Lord's favour on Jacob because of his works and to show that it was because of God's own grace.



You have read that part of romans in a wrong contexed. You can not make this scripture about individuals. If you use correct exegesis you would know that God was talking about the two [b]Nations[/b] which Jacob and Esau represeanted:
Gen 25:23 "And the LORD said unto her, Two [b]nations[/b] are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one [b]people[/b] shall be stronger than the other [b]people[/b]; and the elder shall serve the younger."

Rom 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. [b]For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[/b] :7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. :8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."


Isaac is the Son of Promise in which Nation His Seed will come out from. The seed of Esau are the children of the flesh, wich God did not choose. So the "love and hate" statements are of Gods choice in which Nation He would choose or not choose.

Jeremiah 18:6 "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

And again the referance of clay and a maker is talking about the [b]Nation[/b] Israel wich is in contexed with Romans 9.

Quote:
the thing is our perception of free will is such that we think we can operate independant of the Lord's will which is not true.



I will say that if I murder someone, that would be out of the will of God, or any sin for that matter

Romans 9:21,22 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one [b]vessel unto honour[/b], and another unto [b]dishonour[/b]? 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
[b]But[/b]
2Timothy 2:20,21 "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to [/b]honour[/b], and some to [b]dishonour[/b].
:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
This is saying that the vessels of wrath can [b]choose[/b] to be a vessels of honor.

If God does not Choose, predestin, or will all to be save, He is not an all loveing God! If he wills all to be saved which the Scriptures sais He does, then all would be saved, but in reality they won't. The reality of this prooves our choise in the matter.

 2006/2/15 0:03Profile
jimp
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 Re: Our Choiceis His foreknowledge

hi logic, what you are saying is that God chose israel,a small family in a big world, to the exclusion of the rest of the world.true.. the rest of the people had no chance but salvation came to the jews.Jesus said these are not my sheep... have you seen any goats turn into sheep or vice versa... have you seen tares turn into wheat or vice versa... let God be God and don't try to figure it all out so that it is up to man. jimp

 2006/2/15 0:30Profile
IRONMAN
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 Re: Our Choiceis His foreknowledge

Bro Logic
like i said this issue is not one that can be resolved this side of heaven and i also said that the 2, free will and predestination are the same thing, an expression of God's sovereignty. this mystery will only make total sense on the other side so i'm not going to discuss this further.

there was aportion of Romans chapt 9 which is key in all this which yo left out in your response and which we all need to take into consideration. that is vs 20 which asks us who are we to talk back to God about what He has done.


[b]And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder F35 shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[/b]

bro the bottom line is we are called to be vessels of mercy therefore we should set ourselves to doing what vessels of mercy do.

Quote:
If God does not Choose, predestin, or will all to be save, He is not an all loveing God!



says who? can you tell God He is wrong for anything He does? Can i? can we march up to heaven and complain bitterly to convince Him to do other than what He has purposed in Himself?

bro the nations of Jacob and Esau can't be separated from their fathers, it was because of God choosing from between the 2 whom He would love that their destinies were sealed. the whole point was to show God's sovereignty and grace as being independant of anything we can do. noone can come to God lest the Father calls him.

we're vessels of mercy and that's the bottom line so we have to set about the task of doing what vessels of mercy do.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/15 0:51Profile
JaySaved
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 Re:

Quick question:

What does Paul mean when he says, "Israel of God"?

Galations 6:12-16
12Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. 14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, [b]even to the Israel of God.[/b]

 2006/2/15 11:35Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Prayer is the Key

Quote:
Quote: If God does not choose, predestine, or will all to be save, He is not an all loving God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Says who? Can you tell God He is wrong for anything He does? Can I?



Reality says, thats' who.
If you had a boat that can hold 20 people and 20 people needed saved, then you came and only chose 5 when all 20 were present, would that be a loving act? no, that would be wrong even for God, for God is rightious and just.
But, if those other 15 people chose not to step in the boat with you coz they hated you, that would be more like how it is in reality

God is a God of reality and reason, if it makes sense up there, it will make sense down here.

Quote:
Can we march up to heaven and complain bitterly to convince Him to do other than what He has purposed in Himself?



The answer is 100% [b]Yes[/b], but not with that attitude of "complaining bitterly"

Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

That obtaining mercy, and finding grace can also be for someone els and not only for you.

The key is about the matter of prayer?
If I never had prayed for my brother, God wouldn't have saved him.
Ezekiel 22:30 "And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. :31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD."

 2006/2/15 11:47Profile
Logic
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 Re:

Quote:
by JaySaved Quick question:

What does Paul mean when he says, "Israel of God"?



They are the true people of God.

Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Colosians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 2006/2/15 12:04Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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 Re:

Quote:
They are the true people of God.



Both Jews and Gentiles?

 2006/2/15 13:41Profile





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