| Re: "MY EXPERIENCE of a CLEAN HEART"|
Thanks so much for posting this article Freecd and both yours and Lyall's responses! Like Ben, i cry out Hallelujah! HOLY HOLY HOLY IS OUR GOD! This is how I have felt as well but i just don't have the ability to express in words these feelings and this article and your responses summed it up so well. Its great to know that we have a community like this that desires to seek first God's Kingdom AND His Righteouesness.
| 2005/12/10 22:18||Profile|
I agree completely that people are following their flesh. One of the ladies I pray with made an interesting observation -- "People do this because they do not recognize the danger they are in. If they did they wold pray more for their children, their pastors, their chruch and their nation" I think she is very right. In South Korea for instance their are many, many all night prayer meetings constantly going on -- why? Because there is a madman right accoss their border that coudl do them all in in 30 seconds with a nuclear blast. The church in China prays constantly with fervrency -- why? Because they could be arrested, imprisioned and even killed for their faith.
How different this is from us. We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow.
In dealing with my fellow minsters I am at a loss -- so many of them see themseves more as businessmen than men of God. I have a very hard time dealing with them and I have becoem sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.
| 2005/12/10 23:00||Profile|
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
...We are not called to sinless, but we are called to 'holiness'. Sinless-ness is the absence of sin. That in itself it not the gospel. Holiness is the presence and behaviour of the Christ in the believer. Don't measure the work of God in you by what is now missing, but by what is now present. :-)
Daniel van de Laar
| 2005/12/11 8:49||Profile|
| Re: sinless-ness|
We are not called to sinless, but we are called to 'holiness'. Sinless-ness is the absence of sin. That in itself it not the gospel. Holiness is the presence and behaviour of the Christ in the believer. Don't measure the work of God in you by what is now missing, but by what is now present.
(as I am reading A.Murray's 'Holiest of All' :)
Thank you Ron! I agree.
In Him, Chanin
| 2005/12/11 9:22||Profile|
Edward ~> You're on the right track. Having been in leadership in an evangelical church I saw that business side very closely. This is not what Christ established for His Church. It has beome so carnal and people are bowing down to mammon rather to God. I believe God is calling people to come out from amongst those who are turning The Church into a carnal marketplace. I believe that many are called to pastor people, and to care for their spiritual needs. This doesn't need to take place within the system in which man instituted. If we are called out than Christ is able to Shepherd His flock without the contraints that man puts on it and He can use those who are faithful, honest and humble to serve Him.
| 2005/12/11 14:30||Profile|
| Re: sin -o.chambers|
From a previous post :)
From [b]"Conformed To His Image"[/b] by Oswald Chambers
Sin is not wrong doing, it is wrong [i]being[/i]- [b]deliberate and emphatic independance of God[/b]. Sin is mutiny against God's rule; not vileness of conduct, but red-handed anarchy. When you get sin revealed in you, you know that that phrase is not too strong. It is not that men are conscious anarchists- the devil is the only being in whom sin is conscious anarchy- but that a man perceives that that is the nature of sin once the light of God is thrown upon it.
Bear in mind that it requires the Holy Spirit to convict a man of sin; any man knows that immorality is wrong, his conscience tells him it is; but it takes the Holy Ghost to convince a man that the thing he most highly esteems (his own self-government), is an abomination in the sight of God. There is nothing more highly esteemed among men than self-realization, but it is the one thing of which Jesus Christ is the enemy because its central citadel (stronghold) is independance of God.
If a man can stand on his own feet morally- and many a man can- what does he want with Jesus Christ and His salvation? with forgiveness? Some men are driven to God by appalling conviction of "sin". Conviction of sin never comes as an elementary experience. If you try to convict a man of sin to begin with you draw him to a plan of salvation, but not to Jesus Christ.
[b]The essence of sin is my claim to my right to myself; it goes deeper than all the sins that ever were committed[/b]. Sin can't be forgiven because it is not an act; you can only be forgiven for the "sins" you commit, not for heredity. "If we confess our "sins", He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins": SIN must be cleansed by the miracle of God's grace.
It does not awaken antipathy (strong feeling of aversion) in a man when you tell him God will forgive him his sins because of what Jesus did on the cross, but it does awaken antipathy when you tell him he has to give up his right to himself. Nothing is so much resented as the idea that I am not to be my own master. If any man will be My disciple, said Jesus, "let him deny himself," i.e.-deny his right to himself, not give up external sins, those are excrescences.
The point is, am I prepared deliberately to give up my right to myself to Jesus Christ? prepared to say, "Yes, take complete control"? If I am, Jesus Christ has gained a disciple.
We don't go in for making disciples today, it takes too long; we are all for passionate evangelsim--taken up with adding to the statistics of "saved souls", adding to denominational membership, taken up with the things which show splendid success. Jesus Christ took the long trail--"If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself"--"Take time to make up your mind." Men were not to be swept into the Kingdom on tidal waves of evangelism, not to have their wits paralysed by supernatural means; they were to come deliberately, knowing what they were doing.
One life straight through to God on the ground of discipleship is more satisfactory in His sight than numbers who are saved but go no further. Over and over again men and women who should stand in the forefront are knocked clean out. When a crisis comes, the reason is not external wrong-doing, but something has never been given up, there is something in which Jesus Christ has not had His right of way, and the discipleship is marred.
from "My Utmost" -Dec 9th
...It is not a question of giving up sin, but of giving up my right to myself, my natural independence, and my self-will. This is where the battle has to be fought. The things that are right, noble, and good from the natural standpoint are the very things that keep us from being Gods best. Once we come to understand that natural moral excellence opposes or counteracts surrender to God, we bring our soul into the center of its greatest battle. Very few of us would debate over what is filthy, evil, and wrong, but we do debate over what is good. It is the good that opposes the best. The higher up the scale of moral excellence a person goes, the more intense the opposition to Jesus Christ. "Those who are Christs have crucified the flesh . . . ." The cost to your natural life is not just one or two things, but everything. Jesus said, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself . . ." ( Matthew 16:24 ). That is, he must deny his right to himself, and he must realize who Jesus Christ is before he will bring himself to do it. Beware of refusing to go to the funeral of your own independence.
| 2005/12/11 19:11||Profile|
Los Angeles, California
We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow.
You are right on. I believe this to be the case with all my heart.
I have become sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.
I understand exactly how you feel! I have been and will continue to pray for you. You heart for God and the Truth has been edifying and encouraging to me. I assure you are not alone brother. Even though I know very well at many times it doesn't seem like it, God has kept a remnant and you have many brothers and sisters standing with you in this fight. One that's not even that far away. :-D I hope to meet with you soon.
| 2005/12/11 20:03||Profile|
Here's a very brief synposis on what Wesley described as "Christian perfection." The book is available to view free online at http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/index.htm.
BRIEF THOUGHTS ON CHRISTIAN PERFECTION
by John Wesley
Some thoughts occurred to my mind this morning concerning Christian perfection, and the manner and time of receiving it, which I believe may be useful to set down.
[b]1. By perfection I mean the humble, gentle, patient love of God, and our neighbour, ruling our tempers, words, and actions.[/b]
I do not include an impossibility of falling from it, either in part or in whole. Therefore, I retract several expressions in our Hymns, which partly express, partly imply, such an impossibility.
And I do not contend for the term sinless, though I do not object against it.
2. As to the manner. I believe this perfection is always wrought in the soul by a simple act of faith; consequently, in an instant.
But I believe a gradual work, both preceding and following that instant.
3. As to the time. I believe this instant generally is the instant of death, the moment before the soul leaves the body. But I believe it may be ten, twenty, or forty years before.
I believe it is usually many years after justification; but that it may be within five years or five months after it, I know no conclusive argument to the contrary.
If it must be many years after justification, I would be glad to know how many. Pretium quotus arroget annus? [This quotation from Horace is thus translated by Boscawen: -- "How many years give sanction to our lines?" -- Edit.]
And how many days or months, or even years, can any one allow to be between perfection and death? How far from justification must it be; and how near to death?
LONDON, Jan. 27, 1767.
| 2005/12/12 12:12||Profile|
Quote:It is important, I think, to understand that Chambers is distinguishing between "Sin - disposition" and "a Sin - particular act of disobedience".
Sin is not wrong doing, it is wrong being- deliberate and emphatic independance of God.
| 2005/12/13 6:10||Profile|
Quote: We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow.
Quote: I have become sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.
How perfectly these quotes describe my state of mind. So many times I have greived over the state of the church and also my own miserable sinful condition. :cry: However, you are not alone there is a remnant of faithful followers who survive! :-D
| 2005/12/26 20:18||Profile|