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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
How can we not love and worship a God like Him?



Ravi Zacharias has a message where he deals with a childs sense of 'wonder' and how it brings meaning to life to have always that sense of wonder towards God and His creation, etc.

Sometimes I don't know whether to bow my head and weep or to run and jump and shout before the Lord with all my might. Maybe the greatest torment in a devil's hell is to have the final reality of having rejected such a majestic God in all his fullness placed squarely on the shoulders.

I agree Ron and Mike and TheophilusMD. What wonder and amazement! What majesty! He is the only- only one. He is utterly holy- absolutely seperate and other. Can we wonder why the Cheribim cover their eyes? There is none like Him.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/10 10:24Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Ron,

Reading through this thread has been a blessing. If you don't mind, I've made this topic sticky so that it won't fall off into the archives.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/11/10 10:41Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
The Watchtowers's New World Translation builds its own Unitarian error into its own translation at this point and reads "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."



The reason they have inserted an "a" here is to establish that Jesus is not "the" God, but rather, Jesus is "a" God which is lesser than and seperate from "the" God.

They believe the father gave birth to Jesus, and as such, believe that the father created Jesus.

They do not believe Jesus is God.

Just a note,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/10 11:30Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

I do not not like to stir such disunity, and for that I apologize.

I gave my testimony. If none should believe me, I would not care. Who am I that anyone should believe in me? I do not proclaim to be the son of God, rather I testify to Him. And if anyone should judge me for this, then what can I do but submit to thier judgement?

Ron, I cry at your harsh words. Especially when you say "But this God that you have created is an image of your own making, and to worship it is idolatry." If to worship Christ is idolatry, then at least I know that my idol is real, alive, and in love with me.

In my heart, I know what is true without a doubt. I have met Jesus Christ and He is my God. Jesus lives inside of me and is the best part of me. Jesus is God. I eagerly await Heaven, when the union of our love will be fully realized by all.

I do not by any measure think that I am special or better than anyone. And I do believe there are a great crowd of people in all nations around the globe that share this same experience.

Quote:
What wonder and amazement! What majesty! He is the only- only one. He is utterly holy- absolutely seperate and other. Can we wonder why the Cheribim cover their eyes? There is none like Him.



To this I say Amen, and say Thanks be to Christ and His love, that I may look upon God without closing my eyes, or being in shame, and that I may experience the presence of the Lord more intimately than I do my greatest human love.

Truly, God is great!

And praise be to you, my brother Ron Bailey, for all that Christ has and will use you for. May He bless you immensely, and continue to guide your steps.

I do not proclaim to be right in all my doctrines, but I am true in all my love. And I do love each and everyone of you, even if I may fail from time to time.

May Christ be with each of you as your guide that He may lead you into all truth.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/10 12:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, I cry at your harsh words. Especially when you say "But this God that you have created is an image of your own making, and to worship it is idolatry." If to worship Christ is idolatry, then at least I know that my idol is real, alive, and in love with me.


Blake
It may sound harsh, but to create an image of God is idolatry. It is no accident that the words '[u]imag[/u]e' and '[u]imag[/u]ination' begin as they do. “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. [u]Little children, keep yourselves from idols.[/u] Amen.”
(1John 5:20-21, KJVS)
There are many 'Christ's' but the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God and all others are pretenders to His throne and honour.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/10 14:09Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The reason they have inserted an "a" here is to establish that Jesus is not "the" God, but rather, Jesus is "a" God which is lesser than and seperate from "the" God.

Yes, I have had quite a bit of contact with JWs over the years including some intense discussions with the local elders about why the name of Jehovah is never used in the New Testament. My standard statement when they arrive on my doorstep is to introduce myself as a 'Jesus Witness' on the strength of Acts 1:8


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/10 14:31Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

Quote:
It may sound harsh, but to create an image of God is idolatry. It is no accident that the words 'image' and 'imagination' begin as they do.



I have said nothing in disagreement with scripture. However, who can possibly judge this? How should someone know whose interpretation of scripture is correct? Only the Spirit can discern scripture. And only Christ is qualified to judge.

So, please, do not judge me. I ask this of you, not for my benefit, for I know where I stand with Christ. I say this, for your benefit, for it is you who will be judged for how you judge others. Please, for you own sake, watch your words.

I have not created an "imaginary" God. Rather I have shared what the Lord has revealed to me. I do not worship any idol, but the one true God. The bible is one revelation. I have another. No single testimony is valid. My personal testimony combined with the testimony of the bible provide a valid testimony of Christ.

Quote:
There are many 'Christ's' but the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God and all others are pretenders to His throne and honour.



You say "the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God", and then accuse me of creating an idol. What foolishness is this? The true Son of God is Jesus Christ Himself, not scriptural revelation. The bible is a testimony of Christ. The bible is not Christ Himself.

I tell you now that He is more real to me than anything else I know, including the bible. I know Christ better than I know myself. He is here with me all the time, and I would be a fool to deny Him or say otherwise. Jesus lives in me. He is my everything. I can do nothing without Him.

If you only know Christ because of what the bible says, my dear brother, then I challenge you to call out to Him. He is real and alive. He is not just "scriptural revelation". He lives in all true believers. Do you not know Him personally? Have you not met Him in Spirit?

2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

In love,

Blake























_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/10 16:27Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
"I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of 'she' in this passage clearly establishes this."

This is not heresy; it is blasphemy.



I have been accused of blasphemy. Let us see what the bible says on this issue.

Proverbs 1:20-23
20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

The above scripture clearly establishes that Wisdom is a "she." One of the things I think is interesting is how Wisdom is described as calling out asking people to turn at her reproof. This to me is the exact description of the Holy Spirit convicting a person. It then says "I will pour my spirit unto you." If we listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and become saved, the Holy Spirit then fills us.

Proverbs 2:10-12
10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;

It says, "when wisdom entereth into thine heart." The Holy Spirit fills our heart, and when it does, we are filled with joy as described above.

Proverbs 7:1-4
1 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure my commands. 2 Obey them and live! Guard my teachings as your most precious possession. 3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart. 4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family.

Many times in proverbs, it begins the conversation saying "my son". Whoever is speaking in these passages, they are obviously speaking to "my son." Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the son of Solomon. Whether it is God speaking, or King Solomon speaking, it is clear that the proverbs is speaking to Jesus. The proverbs is speaking about Wisdom to Jesus. The above scripture clearly tells the son to "Love wisdom like a sister." If Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit is the sister of Jesus.

Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man."

The Holy Spirit is calling to the sons of man that they may be convicted of thier sins and may turn to the son of God.

Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit has been called the Spirit of truth. Wisdom, according to the scripture above, speaks truth. Notice the difference here. Jesus said He was the truth. However, the Holy Spirit speaks to the truth.


Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:



Is not the parallel between these two scriptures clearly apparent?

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jesus died for our sins. The Holy Spirit calls us to repentence. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. And so, when we reject this calling, and do not turn to Christ and accept His free gift of grace, we are condemned to eteral death.


Based upon all this, is it any wonder that......

The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15).

From The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV

I pray that the truth with be revealed among all true believers.

In Christ with love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/10 16:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi BeenBlake,

Quote:
So, please, do not judge me. I ask this of you, not for my benefit, for I know where I stand with Christ. I say this, for your benefit, for it is you who will be judged for how you judge others. Please, for you own sake, watch your words.



Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(Jude)

I have to say that I cannot in good conscience stand by and allow Ron to appear as though he is 'judging' when in fact I stand along side him and others who wish to contend for the doctrine of the Trinity. It is not a judgment on you 'per se', but we simply cannot allow a heretical view of the Trinity to be brought forth without challenging it and stating the biblical record. This is not a doctrine that is up for grabs. It is a [u]fundamental[/u] orthodox Christian doctrine that has been established in the Church since 180 CE and no later than 325 CE. We can agree to disagree on the non-essentials, but this is an [u]essential[/u] doctrine that cannot be compromised.

It appeared to me from the other thread on Trinity that we had been lured into this whole debate. Just being honest. I don't mind that if it is for the purpose of really digging through the texts and coming to an understanding. There are many other passages we could site if you are truly interested in coming to an understanding. I believe we could do it in the Spirit of Christ and many could learn from it. But, I am not at all interested in drawing swords for drawing swords sake.

Again, we simply cannot allow a view such as this to go unchallenged because it can spread and cause much harm in the body. Hence, we are to 'earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints..." It is not an act of malice or 'judgment'; it is a defense of an essential uncompromisable doctrine. How we view God will dictate the whole of our perception of scripture. We have to be utterly inline with God's revelation of Himself. There is no room for subjectivity or any such thing. We have to take the whole of the revelation or we will indeed be guilty of creating a 'god' of our own imaginations.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/10 17:01Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Blake,

This is not personal (what is being discussed)try and keep that in mind.

Quote:
I have said nothing in disagreement with scripture. However, who can possibly judge this? How should someone know whose interpretation of scripture is correct? Only the Spirit can discern scripture. And only Christ is qualified to judge.



No, you have written much that is in disagreement with scripture by pouring your own ideas into them. That is neither harsh, nor personal, nor 'judegemental'. Don't confuse personal attacks or character assination with using "right judegement" as we ought. The attempt here is to reason [i]from[/i] the scriptures.

Quote:
My personal testimony combined with the testimony of the bible provide a valid testimony of Christ.



If they agree, yes. If not who must be incorrect?
Quote:
The true Son of God is Jesus Christ Himself, not scriptural revelation.


No Blake, you cannot have this dichotomy....
My brothers name is Ken. What do you know about him?

Blake, you can go on believeing anything you well like, but do not expect not to be challenged on the things you state. There are just as many indwelt believers here, does the Holy Spirit contradict Himself? Do you fully realize that some here like Ron who has been at this for over 40 years in ministry just might have a bit of knowledge and a lot more experience than yourself?

No need to be offended Blake. Go back over what you have written and see if it truly squares with scripture. It is not a matter of being dogmatic, it's just in taking our 'experiences' to scripture, not the other way around.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/11/10 17:02Profile





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