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PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Who lives in us, the Holy Spirit or Jesus?

It is only as a result of being 'strengthened with might [u]by his Spirit[/u] in the inner man... that Christ dwells in the heart... by faith.

“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,” (Eph. 3:16-17, KJVS)

If you really do believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit you are into full blown 'modalism'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/7 5:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

And alas we have before us the danger of oversimplification of the revelation of God; there is simply no simple way of defining the God as we find revealed in scripture. If I might borrow a quote from Augustine:

"For, in truth, as the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and that Holy Spirit who is also called the gift of God is neither the Father nor the Son, certainly they are three. And so it is said plurally, “I and my Father are one.” For He has not said, “is one,” as the Sabellians say; but, “are one.” Yet, when the question is asked, What three? [u]human language labors altogether under great poverty of speech. The answer, however, is given, three “persons,” not that it might be [completely] spoken, [i]but that it might not be left [wholly] unspoken.[/i] [/u]"

As Ron has rightly pointed out, the doctrine of the Trinity was forged as a result of multiple heresies coming against the Church. The early Church went through a period or age of 'apologists' in which God raised up men to defend the Biblical Revelation against a host of false teachings. Modalism and Unitarianism are next of kin. At the end of the day we are left with an impersonal God who has manifested Himself three times, but has never truly walked among men or dwelt in their hearts by faith. This is the ultimate finality of modalist teaching taken to its logical conclusion.

We have to be willing to allow the biblical revelation of God to stand in all of its parts without feeling compelled to fit it into some sort of construct that makes us compromise that revelation. In other words, we cannot force a square peg through a round hole unless we modify either the peg or the hole.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/7 9:18Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: godhead

Ron you quoted me:

Quote:
I think this shows signs of having become an obsession for you


You are correct Sir; I am obsessed with worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth. I find it strange that you don’t confirm and acknowledge my direct Scripture quotes, but only address the apparent disagreement with the Trinitarian Definition.

Ron, in response you said:
Quote:
We are told to worship God, and from a Trinitarian standpoint that authenticates worship to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


I want to humbly submit to you that the “Trinitarian standpoint” is not ordained by God but by man. For me, anything ordained or defined by man does not override God’s Word.

Ron, we are told to test the spirits. This is not a suggestion, but in light of the large diversity of different Scripture interpretations having resulted in hundreds of different denominations and Christian non-denominational groups, this should be a MUST, if we are serious about worshipping the Father in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23,24).

As I have publicly stated on this Forum before, the whole Trinitarian Debate is an unholy exercise taking away from the Majesty and Glory of our infinite wise and “as someone put it” incomprehensible God. We cannot now or ever achieve the ability to define our God, and any attempt certainly will leave us wanting and open us up to deception by Satan.

It troubles me to no end that God in His Wisdom gave us a proof as to the truth and we march over it with OUR human definitions. It is a free gift of God given to every believer who is willing to submit to Him and nobody else. This gift is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. The Bible tells in a number of places how the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in believers. The Bible even tells us what the Holy Spirit does when He really lives in us: He will lead us into all truth.

In two places the Bible quotes directly what it is that the Holy Spirit cries out: Abba! Father! Why do we have the Holy Spirit? We received the Holy Spirit as an answer to Jesus promise that He would BE WITH US EVEN TO THE END OF THE AGE. After all, Jesus lives in our hearts by His Spirit, the Holy Spirit that is.

Ron, these two “absolutes” come from the Bible which tells us about an “absolute” God, Who has only ONE TRUTH, and that TRUTH is absolute. There is nothing we can add to God’s truth or take away from it. Therefore, if the Spirit in me bears witness to me and makes me cry our Abba! Father! I know for certain that it doesn’t come from the one who is transformed as an angel of light.

Beenblake, I appreciate that you come to some of the conclusions you do. Just as an aside, I know all about JWs. I counciled as a Christian people suffering with demonic problems and taught on cults - including JWs - for more than 20 years.

Just this morning I read from Acts 1: 1,2
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

He in verse 2, is Jesus and prior to that Jesus ascended to heaven he commanded His disciples through the Holy Spirit. Who was speaking? Was it Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Jesus spoke and the Holy Spirit gave Him the words, or was it Jesus Who instructed the Holy Spirit what to say through Him? Beenblake, it doesn’t matter. Jesus spoke, that’s all that matters.

It is just as “confusing” when you read the accounts of the seven churches in the Book of Revelation. The seven churches are each addressed by Jesus and the addresses stop with the One Who calls Himself the Spirit. Yet, the same One is making the address. Jesus and the Holy Spirit here, just as in Acts 1:2 speak as One. When you read Isaiah 11:1,2, you see that the seven Spirits of God come upon the One who comes from the root of Jesse. This is Jesus, and the seven Spirits of God rest on Him. When you flip to the book of Revelation chapter 5, you will find that the Lamb has the seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God. This Beenblake is how the unity between The Father, Jesus, and every believer is achieved; it is through the Fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Therefore Paul writes in Ephesians 2: 6 that we – as true believers – have been raised up with Christ in the heavenlies, while in the body we are still on earth.

When you read Paul’s prayer in Ephesians 1:15-18, you will note that Paul is asking the Father for some of the same Spirit(s) that are listed in Isaiah 11:2. Don’t be confused about this, but in the opening verses of the Book of Revelation it talks about the seven Spirits of God before His throne. These seven spirits of God are the Holy Spirit.

All Jesus ever did is worship His Father, while He was filled with the Holy Spirit. If you want to test the spirits, the only real proof you will ever have, is that you too will want to pray to the Father, because this is what the Holy Spirit will do in a “Spirit-filled” believer, and it is about the only real test we have been given which lines up with Scripture.

I describe much more of this on my website. Soon will I post an article in which I will give some examples of “false” religious spirits that operate in the Church today. There was a very good reason why Jesus asked the question: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8).


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Hans Prang

 2005/11/7 9:51Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I DON’T SAY HERE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD, all I say is that we are NOT told to worship Him.



Hans, this is very simple, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, then worship God.

If you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, then we need to start another discussion regarding the deity of the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/11/7 10:16Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Hans,

Quote:
All Jesus ever did is worship His Father, while He was filled with the Holy Spirit.



Did Jesus ever accept worship?




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/7 10:46Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re:

Dear Nasher and Robert,

The Holy Spirit is God, how could He come forth from God search the inner depths of God and not be God? Of course the Holy Spirit is God. And this is exactly the point, when we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit, but when we worship the Holy Spirit, of Whom Jesus stated: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you (John 16:14), we go beyond to what we are told to do, since:

The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus. We are told to do homage to the Son, Psalm 2:11. The Hebrew implies kiss the Son.

Yes we worship Jesus, and if we worship the Father and Jesus and tyhe Holy Spirit is worshiped too, that is what happens. The Bible doesn't specify this. What I do know is that the more people worship and focus on the Holy Spirit, instead of on the Father, very amazing, but to me, very scary things happen.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/11/7 10:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
letuspray writes:
You are correct Sir; I am obsessed with worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth. I find it strange that you don’t confirm and acknowledge my direct Scripture quotes, but only address the apparent disagreement with the Trinitarian Definition.

You referred to Luke 18 which I answered, and to various texts in the Revelation that you chose to call an 'example'. The Revelation is a moving pageant which tells a story. If you try to follow it as an example you will find that the throne is only occupied by 'one' in Chapter 4 but that as a result of His 'overcoming' the Lamb shares the throne and worship in Chapter 5. It is not designed as an 'example' but as truth told in 'signs'. To try to defend your thesis from here only shows that you don't understand the nature or purpose of the book.

That leaves John 4 in which the Son in his incarnation is continuing to direct worship to the Father.

Your admission of 'obsession' is the real key to the way you are using these scriptures.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/7 11:04Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
trinitarianism was an attempt to provide a 'reasoned' defence



Exactly.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/7 11:19Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Hans,

Quote:
Yes we worship Jesus, and if we worship the Father and Jesus and tyhe Holy Spirit is worshiped too, that is what happens. The Bible doesn't specify this. What I do know is that the more people worship and focus on the Holy Spirit, instead of on the Father, very amazing, but to me, very scary things happen.



I think at issue here is the word 'worship'. When you consider the role that the Holy Spirit takes in leading our lives, the subservience is at a level unparalleled in the common understanding of the word 'worship' as it is generally used. We are also commanded and warned about 'grieving' and 'blaspheming' the Holy Spirit. These negative commands have the positive effect of generating 'worship' although we may have no such commandment "thou shalt worship the Holy Spirit."

What happened when Ananias and Sapphira 'lied' to the Holy Ghost? They were told that they had not lied unto men, but unto God. This was an serious act of [u]irreverence[/u] and death followed. Worship is more than something we 'say' with our mouths or posture in prayer; it is the very posture of our lives, and if that be an indicator, our lives are one continuous act of worship towards the Holy Spirit. In this regard I would argue that our obedience is our primary expression of worship to the Holy Spirit. Beyond that I have never heard of a person calling the Holy Spirit's name in worship, though I know of no place where it would be expressly forbidden. The focus, again, is on our obedience in being 'led' of the Spirit.

God Bless,

-Robert



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/7 11:27Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
Any 'conversation' between the Father and the Word is either consciousness of separate personhood or schizophrenia; I can't think of any other options.



Have you ever had a conversation with your own word? Imagine if you spoke and your words stopped in mid-air, turned around, and spoke back to you. And yet, you say that if God is not three persons, He is schizophrenic?

You are trying to comprehend God using logic and reason. My point is that God creates in logic and reason, but He is beyond comprehension.

You are right, I have a problem with the word "person." It seperates God into three beings. I cannot accept this. There are not three Gods but one.

I agree that God is a person, much like we are persons. However, God is not three persons, He is one person. He has one "personhood". There is not a seperate 'consciousness' in God, for if there were, then God would conflict. Jesus would think something seperate from the father, and those thoughts would conflict, thereby creating a conflict in God. This cannot be.

And that is not modalism, for modalism claims that God showed Himself in three different modes. I don't believe Jesus is a different mode of God. I believe Jesus is the Word of God. They are inseperable. They are one and the same. If you worship Jesus, you are worshipping the father. If you see Jesus, you have seen the father.

My word can be written. When it is written, it can exist longer than I can. It can exist apart from my presence. However, my word is not a seperate person from me. It does not have a seperate consciousness than me. It is my consciousness. It is the expression of my thoughts. My word cannot say or do anything that is different from me or my consciousness. Neither could Jesus do anything seperate or different from God.

Have you ever acted in a play? Have you ever wrote a story to demonstrate something? Have you ever set an example to your children by acting it out first?

Is it really schizophrenic to think that God came to earth as Jesus as a demonstration of what we shoud be?

God came to earth for us, not for Himself. Do you honestly think Jesus was praying to the father for Himself? If Jesus is a seperate person from the father, and yet Jesus is God, then why would Jesus pray at all? Everything Jesus did was for our sake. Nothing Jesus did or said was for His own benefit or for the benefit of God. It was for our benefit and God's glory.

A freind of mine said that He believed Jesus was an avatar of God. I don't agree with this either. Jesus is the true person of God, not just a mask or a mode. God came to earth to reveal His true person to us, so that we could know Him personally. This is the same person that lives in us, and rules over us.

I will look over the website you have given me. However, I don't suspect it will change my mind. I don't like the doctrine of the trinity. I understand why it was developed, and what it was trying to accomplish.

May God lead us all closer to Him.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/7 12:30Profile





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